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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:10:31
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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I was thinking about the potential end of 40k, and how the major threats are basically 1-Chaos, 2-Nids, 3-Orks, 4-Necrons, and most of the other races like Eldar Tau and the Imperium and kinda running on borrowed time, but then it occured to me that even if say the Orks great Waaagh! swept across the galaxy, or Abaddons Crusade finally lead to the destruction of terra, would the Dark Eldar give a feth? Isnt Commorragh in some sort of alternate dimension? And just how many of them are there? Presumably not enough to compete with Nids or Orks but I would guess substantially more than Craftwrold Eldar? I genuinely know very little about Dark Eldar, and ive only played against them two or three times, so forgive me if I seem a bit uninformed
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/18 18:11:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:40:49
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar Population Size
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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The DE live in the Webway, an alternate dimension that the pre-fall Eldar created so they wouldn't have to deal with Warp travel (which shows how advanced pre-fall Eldar were). Unlike the Warp, the Webway is kind of a series of tubes, some small enough that only a small ship can fit, some big enough to hold whole cities. It's much more stable and safer than the Warp, obviously, but apparently there still some creatures that seem very warp-entity like. The DE would be safe in the Webway, provided that other races don't find a way in (which has happened before, forces and individuals of the Imperium have got in there, and the Thousand Sons are almost as good at traversing it as the Eldar). However, the DE have another problem. To keep themselves alive forever, and cheat Slaanesh, the DE have to keep torturing lesser races. Without the "soul/pain energy" (I don't think it has an official name) that, they can't make clones or extend their lifespans (Eldar live a really long time, but will still die of old age eventually). So the DE NEED to leave the webway and harvest sentient races. It's not something they do just for fun (although they've grown to enjoy it). It's a means of survival. Tyranids, Orks, or Necrons consuming everything would be very bad for them, because they can't really torture those races. As for the DE having more than the Craftworld Eldar, there's no solid fluff to indicate that. We know their main city, Commorragh, is pretty huge, and they have a couple, lesser cities in the webway, as well as handful of little outcast empires in real space. The CE meanwhile seem to have dozens, or possible even hundreds of Craftworlds. The fluff has never really given an indication of how the numbers compare.
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40k is 111% science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:42:48
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Well given very few can access webway, there pretty safe but the loss of all these prey races, could impact there whole pain for not being eaten by chaos protection.
They could be safe but hit in other aspects.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/18 18:43:43
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:52:15
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Commorragh is indeed located in an alternate dimension, which means the DE are pretty safe from attack, but as told above here, they need the other 'soft' races to keep themselves alive. Imagine the Dark City as a huge parasite sucking lifeforce from the galaxy. Without suitable hosts, the parasite will wither and die.
As for the DE population, it is pretty large. Commorragh itself is monstrously large, and it has many sattelite realms. There are also plenty of DE raiders roaming the galaxy.
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:54:48
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Purged Thrall
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If I recall correctly, the DE have used orks for pain energy several times.
Other than that I think they might outnumber CE because they clone the majority of the population. There are still natural births (hence trueborn) so the population growth would be pretty close before the test tube babies came in.
On the other hand, DE have many more deaths, especially among the civilian population.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:57:16
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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novaspike wrote:If I recall correctly, the DE have used orks for pain energy several times.
Other than that I think they might outnumber CE because they clone the majority of the population. There are still natural births (hence trueborn) so the population growth would be pretty close before the test tube babies came in.
On the other hand, DE have many more deaths, especially among the civilian population.
I don't think they have a civilian population.
Unless you count all those poor slaves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 18:59:08
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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Ah i hadn't realised Commorragh was in the Webway, so that would rule them out from being safe from Chaos I guess. So id assume that if Orks or Nids or Crons became dominant theyd start fighting amongst themselves until they eventually all died out. I know Orks have a crazy metabolism, but I would have thought that helped the DE? Allowing them to inflict incredible amount of pain on an Ork before he eventually carked it. Orks have great regenerative abilities as well, and theyre not incapable of feeling pain, as demonstrated by Pain Boyz
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 19:15:06
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar Population Size
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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The Webway is not impenetrable.
Portions have been sealed off.
DE can't sit and wait as was pointed out already.
Chaos couldn't resist tasty eldar souls, so they would do anything to get in.
Necrons now how to breach it. They fought the Eldar once..
Nids would consume the whole prey of the DE. Nothing to feed off...and chaos still waiting...
Orks winning is the best outcome for DE. Until the greenskins krump those pesky space elfs.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 20:51:19
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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IIRC, I remember somebody else on Dakka Dakka calced statements on the size of Commorragh, resulting with a volume that could support something like a hundred trillion Dark Eldar, with the absolute minimum being tens of trillions.
Craftworld Eldar meanwhile number in the billions, and the Exodites are an complete unknown from everything I've read.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 21:15:06
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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There's probably hundreds of billions of them at the very least.
Very much a thriving race compared to our own little World, but a tiny and insignificant one on a Galaxy-wide scale.
Eldar probably have similar levels.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 23:06:13
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
Connah's Quay, North Wales
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While of course it isn't accurate, this is a fun piece of math a friend on mine did on the Dark City based on the term ''A Mountain to an Termite Hill'' which is used to compare Commaragh to a Hive World. It's a very fun estimate, and when compared to the CWE not even in the billions it makes it look like the Dark Eldar are positively thriving!
'Commaragh to a hive world would be to compare a mountain to a termite mound'
Ok so an average terminte mound is say 4x2x2 meters = 16 m^3
The average mountain according to ask.com is 300 m high 1200 m base so 130000 m^3
Hive worlds have around 5-20 hives per planet each hive housing 10-100 billion people.
So the bottom end of that; 5 hives, 10 billion per hive gives 50 billion people and that is the termite mound.
So the population of Commorragh on the low end using my assumptions is around 542 trillion minimum.
At the high end 100 billion per hive 20 hives per planet 21666 trillion maximum.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/18 23:23:26
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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novaspike wrote:If I recall correctly, the DE have used orks for pain energy several times.
Other than that I think they might outnumber CE because they clone the majority of the population. There are still natural births (hence trueborn) so the population growth would be pretty close before the test tube babies came in.
On the other hand, DE have many more deaths, especially among the civilian population.
EDIT: Gah, I quoted the wrong person.. And my quote was useless because he said what I did. T_T
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/18 23:30:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 10:50:53
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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ALEXisAWESOME wrote:While of course it isn't accurate, this is a fun piece of math a friend on mine did on the Dark City based on the term ''A Mountain to an Termite Hill'' which is used to compare Commaragh to a Hive World. It's a very fun estimate, and when compared to the CWE not even in the billions it makes it look like the Dark Eldar are positively thriving!
'Commaragh to a hive world would be to compare a mountain to a termite mound'
Ok so an average terminte mound is say 4x2x2 meters = 16 m^3
The average mountain according to ask.com is 300 m high 1200 m base so 130000 m^3
Hive worlds have around 5-20 hives per planet each hive housing 10-100 billion people.
So the bottom end of that; 5 hives, 10 billion per hive gives 50 billion people and that is the termite mound.
So the population of Commorragh on the low end using my assumptions is around 542 trillion minimum.
At the high end 100 billion per hive 20 hives per planet 21666 trillion maximum.
Thats a lot of dark eldar
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 11:17:24
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar Population Size
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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fallinq wrote:. As for the DE having more than the Craftworld Eldar, there's no solid fluff to indicate that. We know their main city, Commorragh, is pretty huge, and they have a couple, lesser cities in the webway, as well as handful of little outcast empires in real space. The CE meanwhile seem to have dozens, or possible even hundreds of Craftworlds. The fluff has never really given an indication of how the numbers compare.
DE are the dominant form of Eldar. They are more common than CWE or exodities.
There is a reference that the CWE believe there are more DE than there are CWE to back this up. Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an understatement. It's the biggest city in the galaxy by large measure. It is so massive that it contains not just one, but 4 stars inside it for light. Consider the scale of the ring in Ringworld. Commorragh might not be there(but hey it might), but it's closer to that than it is to a planet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/19 11:20:54
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 14:56:17
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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ALEXisAWESOME wrote:While of course it isn't accurate, this is a fun piece of math a friend on mine did on the Dark City based on the term ''A Mountain to an Termite Hill'' which is used to compare Commaragh to a Hive World. It's a very fun estimate, and when compared to the CWE not even in the billions it makes it look like the Dark Eldar are positively thriving!
'Commaragh to a hive world would be to compare a mountain to a termite mound'
Ok so an average terminte mound is say 4x2x2 meters = 16 m^3
The average mountain according to ask.com is 300 m high 1200 m base so 130000 m^3
Hive worlds have around 5-20 hives per planet each hive housing 10-100 billion people.
So the bottom end of that; 5 hives, 10 billion per hive gives 50 billion people and that is the termite mound.
So the population of Commorragh on the low end using my assumptions is around 542 trillion minimum.
At the high end 100 billion per hive 20 hives per planet 21666 trillion maximum.
An average mountain is not 300 meters high. In fact, at 300 meters, it would not even be a mountain, it would be a hill.
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 18:19:39
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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It certainly puts galaxy-wide populations into perspective, doesn't it? Suddenly, Tyranid hive-fleets being possessed of "thousands of bio-ships" containing "billions of Tyranids" each isn't quite so scary. Scary to an individual world or system whose populations may number in the tens of billions, but not to the combined might of most of the Galaxy's faction.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/19 18:21:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 19:14:02
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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BlaxicanX wrote:It certainly puts galaxy-wide populations into perspective, doesn't it?
Suddenly, Tyranid hive-fleets being possessed of "thousands of bio-ships" containing "billions of Tyranids" each isn't quite so scary. Scary to an individual world or system whose populations may number in the tens of billions, but not to the combined might of most of the Galaxy's faction.
Yeah, but don't take the numbers GW spits out too seriously. We all know that most of them are wretchedly awful about numbers, demographics, and basic math.
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40k is 111% science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 19:22:20
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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True dat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/19 23:48:16
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar Population Size
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds.
Minea from that page in the 5th edition rulebook is described as a typical example of a hive world, and it has 154 billion population, well under the 500 billion maximum. Assume we are still generous and give all hive worlds a population of 250 billion to account for less populated worlds elsewhere in the Imperium. 32,380 hive worlds of 250 billion population each is 8.095 * 10^15.
As for Tyranids, we have one known quote regarding their numbers and it is arguably more for flavor rather than literal number count but nonetheless:
A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is no more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds.
(2nd edition Tyranid Codex, p. 4)
That is 10^18 or a million trillion.
So the upper limit of the Imperium's population (which we know is a deliberate over-estimate and includes non-combatants) is 5 * 10^17 vs. Tyranids of 10^18. In other words, the maximum upper limit of the Imperium's population is still at absolute best half of the Tyranids, and almost certainly much worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 01:09:30
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Raging Ravener
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Well its been said in numerous places that unless all the races unite to fight the bugs, that the Nids would eventually consume everything. I do wonder though- do the DE have to do the whole pain/torture feeding thing off other races? Cant they just do it off the lower classes/slaves and keep pumping out clones to keep the cycle going?
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6000 4000 3500 3000 4000
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky." - Tom Kirby
Successful Trades: HokieHWT, Physh, rothrich, ProjectOneGaming, revackey, chaos0xomega, Redfinger, Kavik_Whitescar |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 01:23:19
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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It's been said once in each of the last two Tyranid codices. I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into it, tbh. I mean, the rulebook lists Chaos as "the greatest threat". Doom n gloom one-liners are pretty par the course in 40K.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/20 01:23:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 01:23:38
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cambonimachine wrote:Well its been said in numerous places that unless all the races unite to fight the bugs, that the Nids would eventually consume everything. I do wonder though- do the DE have to do the whole pain/torture feeding thing off other races? Cant they just do it off the lower classes/slaves and keep pumping out clones to keep the cycle going?
If they could they would never need to leave Commorragh.
Remember the energy they derive is not purely from physical pain and torture, but also emotional pain. The ability to feed off this is probably the remnant of the ancestral Eldar psychic ability. I would imagine it is less satisfying (maybe even less energy gained) feeding off a slave that has never known any other existence than to feed off of someone that knows they lived a different life and were captured. Certainly the Dark Eldar seem to derive special delight in breaking the spirit and seeing someone plunge into despair from their original defiance, determination, and hope.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 06:50:44
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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BlaxicanX wrote:It's been said once in each of the last two Tyranid codices. I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into it, tbh.
I mean, the rulebook lists Chaos as "the greatest threat". Doom n gloom one-liners are pretty par the course in 40K.
Everything is the greatest threat, short of the Imperium itself.  Orks, Nids, Necrons, Chaos, they're all 100% unstoppable and their victory is only a matter of time.. According to their respective codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 10:39:10
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Hallowed Canoness
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Actually, according to Codex: Inquisition, the Imperium is the greatest threat to itself, so... :p
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 18:20:36
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Dakka Veteran
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 20:00:50
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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That is somewhat ambiguous, as the codex indeed says "the largest Imperial hives" and not "hive world", but it is noted in several different sources that the largest Imperial hives cover the surface of their entire planet.
This is the full quote for reference:
In the depths of the webway lies Commorragh, the lair of the
Dark Eldar; called the Dark City by those who fear to speak
its name. Commorragh is no mere metropolis, for it is to the
largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound
of termites. Its dimensions would be considered impossible if
they could be read by conventional means.
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 20:13:42
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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GW and scale.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/20 20:36:46
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Plus the fanbase and scale isn't better...
A major factor in population size is population density.
space elfs aren't space humans. whatever they are called, if Elf or Eldar, in space or just a fantasy setting, they tend to prefer far more personal space than humans.
The other factor is what this settlement consists of. Hundreds of squaremiles of arenas aren't the same thing as living quarters.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/21 15:23:21
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Iracundus wrote:Cambonimachine wrote:Well its been said in numerous places that unless all the races unite to fight the bugs, that the Nids would eventually consume everything. I do wonder though- do the DE have to do the whole pain/torture feeding thing off other races? Cant they just do it off the lower classes/slaves and keep pumping out clones to keep the cycle going?
If they could they would never need to leave Commorragh.
They might be able to sustain themselves without leaving, but it might just be easier to leave and feed off of poorly defended targets. The DE are nothing if not lazy, seeking easy gains and quick pleasures. Automatically Appended Next Post: Iron_Captain wrote:
That is somewhat ambiguous, as the codex indeed says "the largest Imperial hives" and not "hive world", but it is noted in several different sources that the largest Imperial hives cover the surface of their entire planet.
This is the full quote for reference:
In the depths of the webway lies Commorragh, the lair of the
Dark Eldar; called the Dark City by those who fear to speak
its name. Commorragh is no mere metropolis, for it is to the
largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound
of termites. Its dimensions would be considered impossible if
they could be read by conventional means.
again, it's a city that contains stars. Not just 1, but 4. It is far beyond the planetary scale. As to whether it is filled to the brim with DE is another question. High worlds probably have higher population density than Commorragh, but the very concept of density gets hard to define when you are folding space into a 4th dimension.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/21 15:28:16
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 12:56:23
Subject: Dark Eldar Population Size
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Kabalite Conscript
Rochester, NY
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For those speculating on the relative safety of the Webway/Commorragh, remember that the Imperium has invaded it before. There were only able to do so because Asdrubael Vect ensured that the Desaderian webway portal was open when the arrived, but nonetheless, they did invade. In fact, it begs the question of whether or not the greatest threat to the Dark Eldar's safety in Commorragh is themselves.
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