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Tough objective secured units seem to be the best things out there for 7th. Fielding a terminator army interests me, but the squad size is so small. Even with the great armor save, they don't seem to have enough staying power. What do you think?

Generally weak units.

Deathwing have a decent Alpha Strike and Deathwing Knights are more small-arms resilient, but cost more than regular terminators.

Vanilla Marines variety only see board time as Assault with TH/SS, and very limited at that. They cost roughly as much as three tac marines but with only twice the survivability.

Loganwing... new book around the corner.

Paladins are good.

The main problem with terminators is that people expect too much of them. They throw 200 points worth of stuff on the table and expect it to stare down the entirety of their opponent's killing power with nothing but a sneer of contempt. When terminators are used sensibly, they do a lot better than when they're treated as an expensive suicide unit. Especially if you use them more like elites choices are meant to be used, as versatile table controllers.

Blood Angels with Corbulo is pretty solid, more on the expensive side, but pretty nasty.

 Ailaros wrote:
The main problem with terminators is that people expect too much of them. They throw 200 points worth of stuff on the table and expect it to stare down the entirety of their opponent's killing power with nothing but a sneer of contempt. When terminators are used sensibly, they do a lot better than when they're treated as an expensive suicide unit. Especially if you use them more like elites choices are meant to be used, as versatile table controllers.

This! Death stars can be so powerful these days that units like terminators when compared to a screamer star for instance people denounce them as terrible.

Terminators can be great, but you have to let them do their job. Keep them away from AP 2 shooting with transports and good positioning and force enemy units with bad penn to shoot them and use that 2+ save and they will be as invincible as people expect them to be

as for small squad size, remember if you're willing to pay the points (and haveno intreast in land raiders) you CAN field a 10 man termy squad.

BrianDavion wrote:
as for small squad size, remember if you're willing to pay the points (and haveno intreast in land raiders) you CAN field a 10 man termy squad.

please... please field a ten main term squad for my black talons to not overkill for once....

There was a long thread on this not too long ago. If you scroll back a few pages you can probably find it.

That said, to answer your question, YES, they can be used effectively. BUT, it requires careful playing and strategy (shocker). Ailaros hits it right on the nail, people tend to take Termies with the wrong idea in mind, consequently Termies have gotten a crappy rep. They can be absolutely brutal, but you got to use them right and you have to support them.

Now as far as absolute competitiveness goes? NO. I would not take them. There are better and more point-efficient units that can do the job they do. That is just the reality of squeezing the most value out of your points. I would love for someone to prove me wrong on this but as it stands you won't see a Termie unit included in any of the top-tier loyalist armies on the competitive scene; I'll go as far as including CSM in that too.

Depends.

If your enemy has a lot of AP2+ weaponry: no, they aren't.

If he does not have a lot of it: yes, they can work out quite well.

In a competitive meta: no.

 Ailaros wrote:
The main problem with terminators is that people expect too much of them. They throw 200 points worth of stuff on the table and expect it to stare down the entirety of their opponent's killing power with nothing but a sneer of contempt. When terminators are used sensibly, they do a lot better than when they're treated as an expensive suicide unit. Especially if you use them more like elites choices are meant to be used, as versatile table controllers.

This is too true. I have seen many players drop a big terminator blob on the table, and then say terminators are terrible and they will never take them again because 1500 points of enemy units managed to blow them off the table.

Sure, terminators are really not competitive (except for paladins), but they still have their uses. CSM terminators are probably one of the only advantages over their loyalist counterparts, because the small squad size possibility allows for more flexible tactics, and the cheaper base units and cheap combi weapons help too.

Just like many things, terminators shouldn't be played like the fluff. They are not going to charge in and take out the enemy's lines while shots plink off of them. Think of terminators in that they need to fit the same role as an assassin. You don't send terminators to deepstrike behind some Tau lines where there are 40 firewarriors. You send them in to wipe 5 tactical marines off an objective.

I'm a gaurd player who's played against terminators an awful lot, and I agree with a lot of the other posters. If you rush forward on turn 2 and unleash terminators, all your enemy's short range AP2 and anti-tank will be concentrated on them, and they'll die.However if you time their arrival correctly so that they don't get ganged up on, they can be very effective.

Also don't make the mistake my opponent made of taking 500 points of terminators + characters + land raider, then destroying a leman russ and an infantry squad (250 points) and deciding that was a good trade off. Terminators are good at concentrating kill power, so against high unit low cost armies like the imperial guard, they'll struggle to get their points back even under ideal conditions. That doesn't make them useless as such, but it does make them...underwealming. I would cut them to 32ppm, keep armour/weapons as they are.

Unless your deathwing, gk, or clan raukkan. Don't take them. Of those three gk is mainly for a cc threat other than baby jumpers. Deathwing have their dakka buff and the knights with their seal clubs. And raukkan has much tougher termies than the average bear. Wolf guard terminators also aren't that bad.

Those ones have their uses but their situational or fing expensive. In today's 40k environment more wounds is better than better saves. And for the price of 1 terminator I can take three scouts or 2 tactical marines. I can also take 2 bikers. The terminator is essentially a waste of points. He can be useful but he often dies a lot. Terminators need a serious buff. Perhaps re-roll their invul saves. I could see that.

6+ FNP doesn't make anything "much" tougher. Unless Raukaan has something else for Terminators I don't know about.

Yeah, CSM are a little different because they're cheaper than usual, and you can take a squad of 3 with combi-meltas. They actually can be used as a simple piece trade unit, unlike basically every other terminator option.

In any case, termiantors (the non-THSS/LC kind) are a versatility unit. They have powerfists and terminator armo, which makes them better in close combat than stuff, and have assault cannons/strom bolters which makes them better at shooting than most other infantry, and they deepstrike and have an invul save, so have a great deal of flexibility.

But you've got to make use of those things. They're not a specialist unit, and when you send them up against other specialist units inocrrectly, they'll fail badly. When they do work, though.... damn.

 raiden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for small squad size, remember if you're willing to pay the points (and haveno intreast in land raiders) you CAN field a 10 man termy squad.

please... please field a ten main term squad for my black talons to not overkill for once....

Never said it was a good idea.Never said it wasn't. just said it's doable.

Codex terminators really ARE just bad. yes, people misuse them-but even properly used they most often fal short of simple tacticals.

GK, DA and CSM terminators however, are all far more useful, as they are either better budget, got their own special thing going on, has more options or are outright better equipped for the same cost.

SW used to be superior too, but with new book coming up, I won't look at them at the moment.

Depends on what your up againgst actually.

Againgst orks, nids, and chaos demons, standard tac termies are amazing.

Against eldar, tau, and other marines, not so much.

 ionusx wrote:
the knights with their seal clubs

This made me LOL pretty hard +1'd