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Deathwing are great for fun games, but I don't see them being tournament competitive. Would a mix of tactical marines and deathwing be more advisable?

Unfortunately the DA just dont make a very competitive army by most standards, they are test tube babies for the other marine factions which sucks horrible cause i feel they have the best fluff of all of them.

For the most part ravenwing was their strongest build in 6th, but idk how it holds up in 7th.

There is a brightside though! Dedicated landraiders means you have a scoring OS AV14 weapon platform that can tote around some deathwing knight lol

Also mixing is much more viable than straight DW imo, the alpha can still be strong but with tacs you can add some balance and mobility. I played against a list that dropped belial with a command squad and two units of termies with the banner of fortitude, let me tell you, that was a hard rock to budge, matter of fact i never did kill all of them haha instead though i just played around them and took the objectives. If he had some tacs in there to fight me on obj i dont think i would have won.

If you do a DW, most important thing is to know your own weaknesses, especially the mobility weakness.

I run mostly DW, with a tac squad in a rhino, belial, knights in a LR, and another 2x 5 man termie squads w/ a libby and some comp. vets, 6 bikes w/ a darkshroud. I have'nt had much luck, to be honest lol.

I've considered DW for it's absolute alpha strike capabilities... but, man it's slow. You're hoofing around all game.

Consider the Dataslate: Storm Wing with DW. That might bring some desired synergy.

Ravenwing (especially MSU'ed units) is my favorite.

My thought was Tactical Squads in Rhinos for holding objectives in my deployment zone and the midfield with Belial and termies taking it to my opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
I've considered DW for it's absolute alpha strike capabilities... but, man it's slow. You're hoofing around all game.

Consider the Dataslate: Storm Wing with DW. That might bring some desired synergy.

Ravenwing (especially MSU'ed units) is my favorite.

Is the dataslate on the BL website?

Yup...

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Dataslate-Adeptus-Astartes-Storm-Wing.html

The formation consists of 2 Storm Talons and a Storm Raven.

As long as their is one storm talon alive, the formations Stormraven Gunship has the strafing special rule, which adds +1BS to shooting at ground targets, and adds pinning.

The next special rule, just allows the both Storm Talons to escort the Stormraven at the same time, resulting in one reserver roll, etc...

Do dark angels actually have access to that formation? They can't normally take storm talons.

What ever happened to that combo from 6th where you attach some DA HQ to an IG blob and make it a royal pain in the ass to deal with?

Azreal with his 4++ to a blob haha, i havent seen it in awhile but it is still pretty good id assume

DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

What about bikes?

So would it be safe to say allying in some AM make DA a hell of a lot more viable?
Sounds like something along the lines of
Azreal
+
50 man infantry blob (with priest for rerolls)
+
Ravenwing troops
+
Black Knights
+
tanks/Vendettas
would be a pretty decent start to a list.

axisofentropy wrote:
Do dark angels actually have access to that formation? They can't normally take storm talons.

In 7th, they're considered in same faction. So, yes... DA can take them.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

Who said DA were the allies? This is about making a deathwing ish list viable, azreal unlocks deathwing as troops for your alpha strike, blob squad with a 4++ is a mean unit to try to pull off an obj. So in a sense, yes it does make them better.

 whembly wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Do dark angels actually have access to that formation? They can't normally take storm talons.

In 7th, they're considered in same faction. So, yes... DA can take them.

no we can't, we are considered different codecies and the datasheets on the bl website only apply to codex: space marine armies

Anyway azzy + ig is one option, another is ravenwing, a third option we got in 7th is invinci raider assault. InvincI raider is when you stuff hq's (ideally tech's) inside dw land raiders and grant them a 4+ invul save which is pretty trololol.

One idea I've been experimenting with is knight gerantius dataslate /w ravenwing. It's basically 1000+ points of ravenwing with an imperial knight. Gerantius is then 500pts on top. Gerantius has a unique statline to normal knights. Iwnd, 3+ invul (from 4+), fleet of foot (he can shoot and run in the same turn), he also re-rolls 1's on the stop table and has +1 bs and ws

This way if your ravens get shoved off you can slam gerantius on top for a second wind. If you have a tech in your ravens with a rhino and pfg you can grant him 4+ save to his other facings lol! And get out and repair an extra hp.

Gerantius seems like a match made in heaven for fast moving armies looking to smash the enemy for a second time because the first didn't work.

DA can work fine as...

Mixed-wing: Azrael or Ezekiel as HQ, mostly tactical squads with obsec rhinos or obsec drop pods, and/or scouts; sprinkle in 1 unit of troop termies and 1 unit of troop bikes if you take Azrael, or, if you can't take them as troops due to no Azrael, upgrade to 1 unit of DW Knights and/or 1 unit of Black Knights.

Deathwing, or primarily Deathwing: in my opinion the strongest build for this right now is power field generator on a librarian or techmarine (aboard a land raider crusader, at least till they FAQ things to mean that the PFG no longer does its radius effect from inside a vehicle; after that, go with a bike, and follow the Land Raiders in it), 2 dedicated transport Land Raider Crusaders (for obsec), Belial in one of the LRCs, and at least 3 Deathwing troops choices (at least 1 of which will deep strike). Add in Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, or a few non-DW troops (tacs in rhinos, or scouts) depending on preference. Mostly though you want to go 2nd and just drive two Venerable, 4 HP, AV14, 4++ vehicles at the opponent as fast as possible, Deathwing Assault anyone else on Turn 2 guided by Belial, and really hammer one flank or other isolated area.

Ravenwing -- Sammael, lots of bikes, Ravenwing Command Squad with the dakka banner. Optional biker librarian with power field generator to make the command squad more surviveable (I am not sure you need it). You'll have great mobile anti-infantry firepower and scoring capability with this combo, so you do have to think about where to fit in some anti-vehicle and anti-MC firepower -- either meltas on some bike squads (well worth it I think), or add some obsec speeders with multimelta and typhoon missiles or paired multimeltas.

None of these are super-powerful like Tau/Eldar/Crons but they can all make your opponent know he's been in a fight. I would probably go with mixed wing or Ravenwing in a Maelstrom of War mission as I don't find that DW bring enough obsec forces to do the job really.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
DA can work fine as...

Mixed-wing: Azrael or Ezekiel as HQ, mostly tactical squads with obsec rhinos or obsec drop pods, and/or scouts; sprinkle in 1 unit of troop termies and 1 unit of troop bikes if you take Azrael, or, if you can't take them as troops due to no Azrael, upgrade to 1 unit of DW Knights and/or 1 unit of Black Knights.

Deathwing, or primarily Deathwing: in my opinion the strongest build for this right now is power field generator on a librarian or techmarine (aboard a land raider crusader, at least till they FAQ things to mean that the PFG no longer does its radius effect from inside a vehicle; after that, go with a bike, and follow the Land Raiders in it), 2 dedicated transport Land Raider Crusaders (for obsec), Belial in one of the LRCs, and at least 3 Deathwing troops choices (at least 1 of which will deep strike). Add in Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, or a few non-DW troops (tacs in rhinos, or scouts) depending on preference. Mostly though you want to go 2nd and just drive two Venerable, 4 HP, AV14, 4++ vehicles at the opponent as fast as possible, Deathwing Assault anyone else on Turn 2 guided by Belial, and really hammer one flank or other isolated area.

Ravenwing -- Sammael, lots of bikes, Ravenwing Command Squad with the dakka banner. Optional biker librarian with power field generator to make the command squad more surviveable (I am not sure you need it). You'll have great mobile anti-infantry firepower and scoring capability with this combo, so you do have to think about where to fit in some anti-vehicle and anti-MC firepower -- either meltas on some bike squads (well worth it I think), or add some obsec speeders with multimelta and typhoon missiles or paired multimeltas.

None of these are super-powerful like Tau/Eldar/Crons but they can all make your opponent know he's been in a fight. I would probably go with mixed wing or Ravenwing in a Maelstrom of War mission as I don't find that DW bring enough obsec forces to do the job really.

i still say our most potent tool is the DW LR/lrc/LRR /w a PFG inside of it

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

Who said DA were the allies? This is about making a deathwing ish list viable, azreal unlocks deathwing as troops for your alpha strike, blob squad with a 4++ is a mean unit to try to pull off an obj. So in a sense, yes it does make them better.

The other way to look at it: you need to add guard to DA to make them good. Which, imo, does not a good codex make. Not saying it's a bad tactic, mind.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

Who said DA were the allies? This is about making a deathwing ish list viable, azreal unlocks deathwing as troops for your alpha strike, blob squad with a 4++ is a mean unit to try to pull off an obj. So in a sense, yes it does make them better.

The other way to look at it: you need to add guard to DA to make them good. Which, imo, does not a good codex make. Not saying it's a bad tactic, mind.

Yeah, didn't mean to come off rude with that last comment, I see your point an the DA are in need of some help cause the codex has major flaws but that's what we are here to do is to help get the most out of it.

 ionusx wrote:

 whembly wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Do dark angels actually have access to that formation? They can't normally take storm talons.

In 7th, they're considered in same faction. So, yes... DA can take them.

no we can't, we are considered different codecies and the datasheets on the bl website only apply to codex: space marine armies

Oh wait.. you're right. But, SM and DA are battle brothers. Couldn't you take this formation as your allies?

 ionusx wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
DA can work fine as...

Mixed-wing: Azrael or Ezekiel as HQ, mostly tactical squads with obsec rhinos or obsec drop pods, and/or scouts; sprinkle in 1 unit of troop termies and 1 unit of troop bikes if you take Azrael, or, if you can't take them as troops due to no Azrael, upgrade to 1 unit of DW Knights and/or 1 unit of Black Knights.

Deathwing, or primarily Deathwing: in my opinion the strongest build for this right now is power field generator on a librarian or techmarine (aboard a land raider crusader, at least till they FAQ things to mean that the PFG no longer does its radius effect from inside a vehicle; after that, go with a bike, and follow the Land Raiders in it), 2 dedicated transport Land Raider Crusaders (for obsec), Belial in one of the LRCs, and at least 3 Deathwing troops choices (at least 1 of which will deep strike). Add in Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, or a few non-DW troops (tacs in rhinos, or scouts) depending on preference. Mostly though you want to go 2nd and just drive two Venerable, 4 HP, AV14, 4++ vehicles at the opponent as fast as possible, Deathwing Assault anyone else on Turn 2 guided by Belial, and really hammer one flank or other isolated area.

Ravenwing -- Sammael, lots of bikes, Ravenwing Command Squad with the dakka banner. Optional biker librarian with power field generator to make the command squad more surviveable (I am not sure you need it). You'll have great mobile anti-infantry firepower and scoring capability with this combo, so you do have to think about where to fit in some anti-vehicle and anti-MC firepower -- either meltas on some bike squads (well worth it I think), or add some obsec speeders with multimelta and typhoon missiles or paired multimeltas.

None of these are super-powerful like Tau/Eldar/Crons but they can all make your opponent know he's been in a fight. I would probably go with mixed wing or Ravenwing in a Maelstrom of War mission as I don't find that DW bring enough obsec forces to do the job really.

i still say our most potent tool is the DW LR/lrc/LRR /w a PFG inside of it

Well, I think its not.
Landraiders have too less damage output and there are ways out there to deal with them.

It's pretty hard to take out a Venerable Land Raider with 4++... effectively it has 8 hull points rather than the usual 4, and hoping for a lucky Explode is unlikely, even with a melta weapon, due to the reroll.

4 meltas shoot at BS4 at close range = 1.55 penetrating hits and 0.37 glancing hits, about half of which are blocked by the PFG = less than 1 hull point off on average.

Well, there's always Gauss and Haywire...

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

Who said DA were the allies? This is about making a deathwing ish list viable, azreal unlocks deathwing as troops for your alpha strike, blob squad with a 4++ is a mean unit to try to pull off an obj. So in a sense, yes it does make them better.

The other way to look at it: you need to add guard to DA to make them good. Which, imo, does not a good codex make. Not saying it's a bad tactic, mind.

Yeah, didn't mean to come off rude with that last comment, I see your point an the DA are in need of some help cause the codex has major flaws but that's what we are here to do is to help get the most out of it.

You're good. There are ways to make the army function, it just takes some effort.

7th did make one change that improved Deathwing specifically. The stipulation that only up to half an army could be in reserve is gone. This opens the door for a mass T1 Deathwing Assault. Never have I had to deal with 30 terminators in my deployment zone turn one. Supplement this with an inquisitorial detachment for a trio of servo skulls and you've got something.

Greenwing can also work, specifically with the banners. Spend turn one driving to your location of choice in rhinos, or simply hold your ground. For the rest of the game, salvo for days against infantry. Two tac squads can do the work of four. Lets you pack in more anti-tank elsewhere, via Ravenwing bikers. Squads of three with two meltaguns, for example. Now, with these, you pay for a locator beacon by default. Use it! Reserved Deathwing terminators or pods can pull your bikes out of a bind or the bikes can lead them in to an ideal location. Build the army based off of the tools GW unfortunately made you pay for, because they actually do work together.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
DA being a good supplement to guard doesn't really make DA good.

Who said DA were the allies? This is about making a deathwing ish list viable, azreal unlocks deathwing as troops for your alpha strike, blob squad with a 4++ is a mean unit to try to pull off an obj. So in a sense, yes it does make them better.

The other way to look at it: you need to add guard to DA to make them good. Which, imo, does not a good codex make. Not saying it's a bad tactic, mind.

Yeah, didn't mean to come off rude with that last comment, I see your point an the DA are in need of some help cause the codex has major flaws but that's what we are here to do is to help get the most out of it.

You're good. There are ways to make the army function, it just takes some effort.

7th did make one change that improved Deathwing specifically. The stipulation that only up to half an army could be in reserve is good. This opens the door for a mass T1 Deathwing Assault. Never have I had to deal with 30 terminators in my deployment zone turn one. Supplement this with an inquisitorial detachment for a trio of servo skulls and you've got something.

Greenwing can also work, specifically with the banners. Spend turn one driving to your location of choice in rhinos, or simply hold your ground. For the rest of the game, salvo for days against infantry. Two tac squads can do the work of four. Lets you pack in more anti-tank elsewhere, via Ravenwing bikers. Squads of three with two meltaguns, for example. Now, with these, you pay for a locator beacon by default. Use it! Reserved Deathwing terminators or pods can pull your bikes out of a bind or the bikes can lead them in to an ideal location. Build the army based off of the tools GW unfortunately made you pay for, because they actually do work together.

Good comment.
A DA can be made to work like a well oiled machine.

Honestly there are a few main builds besides mixing and matching into dual or green wing

All of these are assuming you are playing at least 1500 points (or more)

Tri-Raider Spam

3 Deathwing Land Raider Crusaders, libby, 5 man command squad with banner of devastation, 2 cheap tactical squads, the rest of the points into whatever - every land raider gets 24 twin-linked bolter shots per turn, tactical squads can disembark and get the full savlo benefit after 1 turn. 3 Raiders + 2 bare bones tactical squads is 152 bolter shots a turn with the banner of devastation .... that isn't including a power field generator bubble on the land raiders which makes the list alot better.

MSU Ravenwing

sammy, 1 ravenwing command squad with banner of devastation (option to add in a libby and another ravenwing command squad with ravenwing banner - both units normally 5 strong) add as many 6 man ravenwing squads with 2 specials and a combi sgt (combat squadding each squad) + MM attack bike + land speeders, this gives you 4 scoring units per slot 2 of which are objective secured - keep the bolter bikes in range of the banner / on objectives and the special weapons spread or grouped to taste.

Azzy Blob

ally in a cheap IG HQ and a 50 man infantry platoon (1 PCS + 5 ten man combined squads) take 5 power axes and melta bombs on the platoon sgts, 5 flamers and throw azreal into it ... you have 50+ models that will wreck most things in close combat and have a 4+ invu save - use the blob to keep your opponent where you want them on the table and add in whatever support units to taste.

 whembly wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

 whembly wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Do dark angels actually have access to that formation? They can't normally take storm talons.

In 7th, they're considered in same faction. So, yes... DA can take them.

no we can't, we are considered different codecies and the datasheets on the bl website only apply to codex: space marine armies

Oh wait.. you're right. But, SM and DA are battle brothers. Couldn't you take this formation as your allies?

not unless it has its own force org chart. So certain formations like the green tide can be taken as an ally but others like cyper and reclusiam command squad cannot.

Really the only dataslate that I know we can take is knight gerantius from white dwarf as he can be taken by any imperial force. Dark angels effectively have no dataslates and it pisses me right off that everyone else does!

Anyway a work around is to take a librarian and some scouts as an allied detachment and then take it. But then your paying an extra 125pts