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One of the biggest mistakes I think people make about 40k is calling it science fiction. 40k makes little attempt to justify its logic in any sort of scientific way. Ships travel through hell to get to places using magic users to communicate and on occasion fight. 40k isn't so much Science fiction as it is High fantasy that happens to be set in space.

 White Ninja wrote:
One of the biggest mistakes I think people make about 40k is calling it science fiction. 40k makes little attempt to justify its logic in any sort of scientific way. Ships travel through hell to get to places using magic users to communicate and on occasion fight. 40k isn't so much Science fiction as it is High fantasy that happens to be set in space.

Oh yeah? When I purchase 40k novels I get then from the science fiction section. Besides, you're bringing up an argument that's already been made earlier in the thread.

Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?

Adeptus Custodes are not that powerful. A Custode is a very powerful astartes but they cannot single a primarch. In one of the HH novels Horus slays 5 Adeptus Custodes with minimal effort.

Then again, it is Horus. He was all juma juiced up on Chaos energies. Enough so he could kill Sang and wound the Big E

Lord Tarkin wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah , Someone really messed up the lore on that.

Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured

That's the greatest dose of Matt Ward I've ever known.

At least it's not for the GK or Ultrasmurfs

As for the original topic, I'm sure the Custodes could handle it. Wouldn't be easy necessarily but they've been fighting that battle for a while. Chances are they have some sort of plan.

People want primarch's and a world they can identify with. That's why you see the oh but that's not real life that can't happen people.
Never mind what minerals go into making a set of PA or a bolt round. Makes me wonder where everyone's imagination's gone.


The way the wolves are portrayed as SM +1. GK are bout the same. Custodes are GK+1. Probably with a bit more than latent powers. It took 98 GK to take Angron on Armageddon. In the Emperor's gift. If my drunken memory is working.
But id class marine's as unarmoured squadie's and custard's as kitted up sas.

40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.

The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.

The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.

 Psienesis wrote:
40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.

The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.

The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.

Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.

 TheApatheistic1 wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I know that somewhere it says that the Adeptus Custodes are more powerful than the Primarchs but hypothetically, if a Daemon Primarch came through that hole in the Golden Throne would the Custodes be able to defeat them or would chaos finally defeat the Emperor?

Adeptus Custodes are not that powerful. A Custode is a very powerful astartes but they cannot single a primarch. In one of the HH novels Horus slays 5 Adeptus Custodes with minimal effort.

Then again, it is Horus. He was all juma juiced up on Chaos energies. Enough so he could kill Sang and wound the Big E

Lord Tarkin wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah , Someone really messed up the lore on that.

Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured

That's the greatest dose of Matt Ward I've ever known.

At least it's not for the GK or Ultrasmurfs

As for the original topic, I'm sure the Custodes could handle it. Wouldn't be easy necessarily but they've been fighting that battle for a while. Chances are they have some sort of plan.

Well, Horus wasn't really juiced on anything when he did. That is all I will say, you will have to read the rest




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.

The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.

The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.

Science fiction...I will go at this all day long.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.

The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.

The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.

Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.

To paraphrase Rod Sterling, science fiction is a setting where the improbable is made possible, science fantasy a setting where the impossible is made probable. In science fiction (and by this I mean "soft" sci-fi, where one does not require a firm grasp of physics and a degree in advanced mathematics in order to grasp fundamental plot points) there are no supernatural or fantastical elements, at least, none that are presented without a plausible scientific explanation. In science fantasy, such things explicitly exist and, in fact, science fantasy explicitly relies on such things to exist.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
40k is Space Fantasy. There's no Science involved, other than handwavium.

The Custodes are, 1 on 1, better combatants than 99.999% of Space Marines. There are a few (all of them Named Characters) who could best a Custodes in 1 on 1 combat.

The Custodes are, after all, more like duellists and assassins than soldiers, which is why they are not used in the same manner as Space Marines. They lack the unit cohesion and team-work training required to be an effective military unit.

Prove that it is Science fantasy. Its genre is Scifi, as noted by fictional futuristic technology, aliens and the like, and dictations of the creator.

To paraphrase Rod Sterling, science fiction is a setting where the improbable is made possible, science fantasy a setting where the impossible is made probable. In science fiction (and by this I mean "soft" sci-fi, where one does not require a firm grasp of physics and a degree in advanced mathematics in order to grasp fundamental plot points) there are no supernatural or fantastical elements, at least, none that are presented without a plausible scientific explanation. In science fantasy, such things explicitly exist and, in fact, science fantasy explicitly relies on such things to exist.

Remember that the universe of 40k is only a viewpoint from human perspective. Daemons is a relative term. Just because they are medieval style Daemons doesn't mean they are literal biblical style servants of Satan. And the Warp is equated to Hell simply because mankind has no other way to describe it. At the end of the day they are simply another dimension and its inhabitants. There are things LIKE magic and supernatural but none actually are. Psykers are genetic mutants, that much is fact. Eldar, Orks, Necrons are just another form of alien. No different that ET or Xenomorphs or Predators. Everything is simply coated in a layer of superstition and belief and backwards thinking.
And for the record, nothing is impossible, just highly improbable. You cannot say for certain that none of the things in 40k are possible 38000 years from now. There is no way.

But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.

 Psienesis wrote:
But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.

Sorcerers are Psykers. They just use fancy symbols when doinf their psychic stuff. Blood magic? Psykers. Everything "magic" in 40k is genetic mutation overlaid with superstition.
You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from, the muscle and servo power of the armour and marine combined. It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
No, there isn't. Nothing is impossible. Nothing, period. Especially not so far into the future you have no clue what developments are about. Nor do you have a clue what planet has what effects applied to it due to mass, position, moons, the star it orbits, mechanical functions on the planet.

 Deadshot wrote:
It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.

I have some bad news for you...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.

I have some bad news for you...

No, you don't. These are 8ft tall supersoldiers who have armour that greatly enhances their strength. On planets within unknown laws of physics affecting them and unknown materials.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.

I have some bad news for you...

No, you don't. These are 8ft tall supersoldiers who have armour that greatly enhances their strength. On planets within unknown laws of physics affecting them and unknown materials.

You are aware that your strength does not actually matter when your feet are stuck in mud, right?

It just gets the foot you are pushing with further down just as fast if not faster than you are pulling the other foot up.

You know how force works? When an object lies on the ground, then there are two forces affecting it; the gravity, and the <whatever it is called in English> that is equally powerful and pushes up.

When a Marine pushes down his foot to drag his other foot up, then the icky, sticky muddy marsh waters cause the pushing foot to sink down just as much as the foot he is trying to free is pulled up.

Naturally this does not happen since Marines have bootsoles of space-magic handwavium but it's physics for ya.

 Deadshot wrote:
unknown laws of physics

You have no proof or even indication that the laws of physics are different in 40K.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But it also has sorcerers and blood-magics and all of that sort of thing, covens of chanting witches and eight-foot-tall, three-quarter ton men walking through mud as if it were no problem (which violates physics). And, yes, there are many things that are impossible, of which 40K is filled with.

Sorcerers are Psykers. They just use fancy symbols when doinf their psychic stuff. Blood magic? Psykers. Everything "magic" in 40k is genetic mutation overlaid with superstition.
You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from, the muscle and servo power of the armour and marine combined. It is entirely possible that they are strong enough that the sucking mud simply doesn't have enough strength to hold them done.
No, there isn't. Nothing is impossible. Nothing, period. Especially not so far into the future you have no clue what developments are about. Nor do you have a clue what planet has what effects applied to it due to mass, position, moons, the star it orbits, mechanical functions on the planet.

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And this ignores the fact that there is a specific being who is the God of Magic.

 Psienesis wrote:

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).

Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).

Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.

Really. Any idiot who can read can pick up a grimoire and learn the Black Arts. Only those with an active Psyker gene can develop their talents into being a Psyker. One can also be both, a trained Psyker and a student of the Black Arts, such as the Grey Knights, or the Thousand Sons.

You have no idea what physics govern what planets and what material the mud is made from

And this makes it science-fantasy, because what you're canting about here is the science of "handwavium". The setting assumes Earth-like analogies on most worlds. Even the worlds with toxic atmospheres are, more often than not, that way due to human industry, not because the planet has a cyanide atmosphere.

 Psienesis wrote:

Really. Any idiot who can read can pick up a grimoire and learn the Black Arts. Only those with an active Psyker gene can develop their talents into being a Psyker. One can also be both, a trained Psyker and a student of the Black Arts, such as the Grey Knights, or the Thousand Sons.

Could you point me towards some source for this?

Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.

Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.

There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.

In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.

Yeah, I'm not convinced. FFG thinks that SoB use space magic, so I do not trust them on fluff (and it is a licensed product and not by GW proper anyway.) And as with every bizarre fluff interpretation, there always will be some BL book that supports it. Abnett's stuff has numerous other fluff conflicts with studio fluff, anyway. In the studio fluff sorcery has always been based on psychic powers, and I'll stick by that.

Suit yourself. Neither of us is wrong, as there is no canon to this setting.

 Psienesis wrote:
Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.

Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.

There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.

In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.

I don't credit FFG. Sorcerors are pyskers.

I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).

Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.

Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8

Okay, Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers.

That does not disprove Psienesis' assertion that not all sorcerers as psykers, since not all sorcerers are Chaos Space Marines.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).

Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.

Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.

Read Gav Thorpe's blog on the fallacy of canon in 40k and realize that it doesn't matter what you think.

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8

Okay, Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers.

That does not disprove Psienesis' assertion that not all sorcerers as psykers, since not all sorcerers are Chaos Space Marines.

Wow Ashiraya, sorcery is sorcery regardless of who uses it. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No, they are not. Sorcerers are specifically *not* psykers. Sorcery permits the non-psychic mind to create effects that a psyker would otherwise be required for. Many Sorcerers are *also* psykers, as the study of the latter (especially of the proscribed kind) also lends itself to the study of the former (even the knowledge of which is Heresy).

Really? I've never gotten such an impression. Sorcerer is just an alternative name for a psyker, possibly to one who specialises to psychic arts dealing with daemons.

Psychic powers dealing with daemons is actually daemonology. Chaos Sorcerers are literally just Chaotic librarians, and they are most definitely psykers.

Read Gav Thorpe's blog on the fallacy of canon in 40k and realize that it doesn't matter what you think.

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Ok then, go and believe what you want because I don't care either.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8

Okay, Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers.

That does not disprove Psienesis' assertion that not all sorcerers as psykers, since not all sorcerers are Chaos Space Marines.

Wow Ashiraya, sorcery is sorcery regardless of who uses it. Lol

All state ministers of Sweden have been white, but you do not have to be white to be state minister of Sweden.

All Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers, but you do not have to be a psyker to be a sorcerer.

Do not mix correlation with causation.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't care what you think, or what you credit. Sorcerers are not necessarily psykers... but the most-powerful Sorcerers are.

Read this entire link and you will realise how wrong you really are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Sorcerer#.U-5hc1nD8m8

Okay, Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers.

That does not disprove Psienesis' assertion that not all sorcerers as psykers, since not all sorcerers are Chaos Space Marines.

Wow Ashiraya, sorcery is sorcery regardless of who uses it. Lol

All state ministers of Sweden have been white, but you do not have to be white to be state minister of Sweden.

All Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers, but you do not have to be a psyker to be a sorcerer.

Do not mix correlation with causation.

That was an incredibly pale comparison, no offense.

I did not say they are the same thing.

I just broke it down to be more understandable.

Another way to say it would be that 'You have proven that all Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers. Now please provide evidence that this goes for all sorcerers, including the ones that are not Chaos Space Marines.'

'It's common sense lol' does not count as evidence, just in case.