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What would happen if a First Founding Chapter, like the Ultramarines or Blood Angels, were to be wiped out? Would a successor Chapter takes its place? Would the High Lords of Terra create a Chapter specifically to replace them? Or would they be forever martyred?

What do you guys think?

They would probably repace it with a successor chapter, or at least draw elements from a number of them to recreate it.

I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Well, technically there is no such thing as any one chapter having authority over the others. The splitting of chapters was done to eliminate that very aspect.

In the case of the Blood Angels when they were nearly wiped out they summoned the Succesors and asked for gene seed and recruits.

Because of the way the Chapters have been formed and limited, Black Templars being one of the exceptions and Salamanders being limited because of a lack of bodies, the death of an original Legion name wouldn't mean anything. The fall of another system or sector maybe, but nothing more than that. This is all assuming there is nothing left anywhere of that Legion. If there was anything left, they would certainly rebuild if they were able, but that's not 'wiped out'. If the Salamanders were wiped out, few would care that weren't nearby. If the White Scars were annihilated, oh well. If the Space Wolves or Blood Angels were taken out, well that's two corrupted gene-seeds that won't cause trouble again. Dark Angels, well so much for the wild card and unreliable chapter. Ultramarines can be replaced with another Second Founding Chapter easily enough and the Novamarines would fill that gap. Imperial fists can be replaced by the Crimson fists without a pause and Iron Hands, well, no one cares about the Iron Hands.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Because of the way the Chapters have been formed and limited, Black Templars being one of the exceptions and Salamanders being limited because of a lack of bodies, the death of an original Legion name wouldn't mean anything. The fall of another system or sector maybe, but nothing more than that. This is all assuming there is nothing left anywhere of that Legion. If there was anything left, they would certainly rebuild if they were able, but that's not 'wiped out'. If the Salamanders were wiped out, few would care that weren't nearby. If the White Scars were annihilated, oh well. If the Space Wolves or Blood Angels were taken out, well that's two corrupted gene-seeds that won't cause trouble again. Dark Angels, well so much for the wild card and unreliable chapter. Ultramarines can be replaced with another Second Founding Chapter easily enough and the Novamarines would fill that gap. Imperial fists can be replaced by the Crimson fists without a pause and Iron Hands, well, no one cares about the Iron Hands.

In that sense, you're completely right. Every Chapter has the same fighting strength and in that sense they're no different from any other Chapter except the Space Wolves and the Black Templars. But in the "emotional sense" (not sure if I'm using the proper word) they are the first Chapter bearing the name of honor of their primarch's very own legion. To have them destroyed would probably be a devastating emotional blow. Given that, would people try to rebuild the Chapter?

There would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. And they would probably erect a lot of new monuments and memorials, but I don't think they would try to re-create that chapter. The whole emotional value of those chapters depends on them being the direct successors of the Emperor's legions. Sure, they could be replaced by a different chapter with the same name, but it wouldn't be the same anymore. The new chapter would lack the history and character that makes the first founding chapter unique. Even the second founding chapters, who are also direct successors of the Legions, are often already quite different from their parent chapter.

Founding chapters have a little more latitude than successors, but that's about it. If one is completely wiped out, the High Lords aren't going to start another one with the same name.

In The Emperor's Gift, the lead Inquisitor paused for a bit when colliding with the Space Wolves because they knew that taking out a 1st gen chapter might not go over very well. But that wasn't what ultimately stopped them.

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Founding Chapters do not automatically have authority over their Successors. While this is the case by weight of tradition in many cases, there is no "law" stating it must be so... and some Successors tell their Founders to get stuffed.

I imagine, that said whomever destroyed the chapter would proably be the subject to a Imperial Crusade against them. one that would almost certinly see a LARGE percentage of the chapter's sucessors involved.

 Psienesis wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Founding Chapters do not automatically have authority over their Successors. While this is the case by weight of tradition in many cases, there is no "law" stating it must be so... and some Successors tell their Founders to get stuffed.

Hmm, I can imagine this being more true in regards to say the Black Templars and the Crimson fists as they effectively are Imperial Fists with a different name, having the same amount of authoritah, as they were split off from the Legion rather than a subsequent founding. But I can imagine that the Imperial Fists would have more sway over a chapter like the Excoriators or Iron Knights as they are from a later founding. But then you could argue because their bond is not so strong to the parent chapter that they would follow any order or request.

I guess if a first founding chapter had been wiped out, they could reform it from a second founding chapter as the Gene Seed would be more or less the same. But whether they would or no, I don't know. Having a First Founding chapter wiped out would be an excellent recruitment drive.

That will be very sad and a huge impact to the imperium

When word of the Ultramarines' initial defeat at Damnos spread it was enough to cause a great drop morale across the Imperium.
If the Ultramarines where to be destroyed it would be a crushing blow to the people.
While the effects would probably be lessened if it were another first founding Chapter, there'd might be a party if the Iron Hands bit it, it would probably still be pretty great.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Founding Chapters do not automatically have authority over their Successors. While this is the case by weight of tradition in many cases, there is no "law" stating it must be so... and some Successors tell their Founders to get stuffed.

Hmm, I can imagine this being more true in regards to say the Black Templars and the Crimson fists as they effectively are Imperial Fists with a different name, having the same amount of authoritah, as they were split off from the Legion rather than a subsequent founding. But I can imagine that the Imperial Fists would have more sway over a chapter like the Excoriators or Iron Knights as they are from a later founding. But then you could argue because their bond is not so strong to the parent chapter that they would follow any order or request.

I guess if a first founding chapter had been wiped out, they could reform it from a second founding chapter as the Gene Seed would be more or less the same. But whether they would or no, I don't know. Having a First Founding chapter wiped out would be an excellent recruitment drive.

Black Templars have deviated from the Codex Astartes ever since their founding and have always been a crusading chapter much like the old legions. Their command structure and training regime are unique compared to the other chapters. If the Imperial Fists were wiped out and the Black Templars were tapped to fill the role, it would be like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Just ask Legions 2 and 11.

*whistles innocently*

If I recall correctly mars takes Gene Seed taxes from the various Chapters to keep banked in case of total eradication. Though this I know from another poster so it could be flawed. That is why chapters like the Blood Angels rebounded so fast after Sin of Damnation killed over 99% of their numbers.

Presumably the remaining survivors called back to Mars for help. In replenishing the loss.

It would also explain why smaller chapters such as the Salamanders cannot regain numbers as easily. They dont have as much gene seed left over to bank.

Rustican wrote:

Black Templars have deviated from the Codex Astartes ever since their founding and have always been a crusading chapter much like the old legions. Their command structure and training regime are unique compared to the other chapters. If the Imperial Fists were wiped out and the Black Templars were tapped to fill the role, it would be like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

So you're saying you couldn't take Gene seed from a second founding Chapter to reform a new one? I don't get your point as this has nothing to do with what my post was about.

If the Fists had been wiped out and the Black Templars had an appeal to them to break off some marines to reform the Chapter I am sure that there would be marines who would do this, just as there were marines willing to follow Sigismund. I am sure that those Templars who might would be aware of the Codex and its teachings and shouldn't find it too hard to adopt. All in the name of Rogal Dorn and the Emperor of course, it's not like the Templars don't have the marines spare

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Rustican wrote:

Black Templars have deviated from the Codex Astartes ever since their founding and have always been a crusading chapter much like the old legions. Their command structure and training regime are unique compared to the other chapters. If the Imperial Fists were wiped out and the Black Templars were tapped to fill the role, it would be like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

So you're saying you couldn't take Gene seed from a second founding Chapter to reform a new one? I don't get your point as this has nothing to do with what my post was about.

If the Fists had been wiped out and the Black Templars had an appeal to them to break off some marines to reform the Chapter I am sure that there would be marines who would do this, just as there were marines willing to follow Sigismund. I am sure that those Templars who might would be aware of the Codex and its teachings and shouldn't find it too hard to adopt. All in the name of Rogal Dorn and the Emperor of course, it's not like the Templars don't have the marines spare

I remember reading that successor Chapters have unique geneseed, deliberate quirking of the geneseed to make it almost the same but not quite.

 Deadshot wrote:


I remember reading that successor Chapters have unique geneseed, deliberate quirking of the geneseed to make it almost the same but not quite.

As I understand it that just split the legions up, not giving new Geneseed. Might have changed from the IA articles but

Codex Astartes
The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, more flexible formations.

Ultramarines
Most of the original Legions split into five or less Chapters, but the exact number created from the Ultramarines is uncertain. According to the oldest known copy of the Codex Astartes, the so-called Apocrypha of Skaros, the Ultramarines were split into twenty-three Chapters, but it does not name them all.

Imperial Fists
Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars, the Crimson Fists and the Soul Drinkers. The willingness of Dorn to put his initial misgivings aside and embrace the Codex Astartes reassured the High Lords of Terra.

NB: Interesting note on the Soul Drinkers there.

Dark Angels
As the first Space Marine Legion, the Dark Angels' gene-seed is one of the purest and least degraded of all. With the break-up of the Space Marine Legions following the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels gave rise to there successor Chapters, the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Redemption and Angels of Vengeance. Collectively these Chapters are known as the Unforgiven and each continues the work of the parent Chapter in hunting the Fallen.

etc etc

In the case of the Sons of Medusa they are Iron Hands who were given autonomy from the parent chapter after the Moirae Schism

They would be refounded with geneseed from the genebanks, if the IoM saw a need for it.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Well, technically there is no such thing as any one chapter having authority over the others. The splitting of chapters was done to eliminate that very aspect.

Except for the dark angels........

I imagine that veterans etc. from Successor Chapters would reform the Founding Chapter under it's old name and restart the chapter.

My take:

1. 99% of the Imperium would never know nor care. If it was the Ultras or the Fists, they would probably continue to feature in propaganda and news of their destruction would be suppressed.

2. The home systems and Successor chapters would be distraught. One or more of the successors would assume responsibility for the Founders' assets, and probably many would change their heraldry, perhaps outfitting their First Company in the colors of the founder.

3. The chapter name would be retired, and new holidays would be established to remember their sacrifice (unless the event was suppressed as above).

 namiel wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I don't think the High Lords would replace a legion the Emperor had created himself, the sons of Primarchs but i do think that they would leave the successor chapters as they are but promote one to have authority over the others.

Well, technically there is no such thing as any one chapter having authority over the others. The splitting of chapters was done to eliminate that very aspect.

Except for the dark angels........

Well, the Dark Angels are the Dark Angels. Rules don't apply to them lol