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Interesting... your group essentially made Dreadnoughts into vanilla DreadKNIGHTS, haha.

It is a interesting concept, one that actually could bring about the Dreadnought lists again. How did it fair in a list with 9 Dreads? Champions of Fenris?

After about 10 games we capped the dreadnoughts to 3. We tried to abuse it in everyway possible. When we ran squads of dreads we had a game with 9 rifleman dreads set up. It was just so overpowered. It sounds weird but you see a dreadnought on the table at our games...they are not just fluff.

in the end. The saves and special attack were all it really needed

 Strat_N8 wrote:

With that in mind, the best change for Dreads (apart from a meta-shift away from mass S6/7 shooting) would be to give them a back-up save. A Iron Halo or a FNP save of sorts probably wouldn't hurt.

I've been saying Vehicles deserve Saves for a while now. It's a layer of defence that they generally miss out on and it doesn't need to be. Even a 4+ would give some help versus light fire to the rear of most vehicles at the very least.

That said, the other idea I thought sounded awesome to see was finding a way to allow some Walkers to join Squads:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/587731.page#6686369

Some people didn't like my randomise the hits idea, but I figure it basically is a save on the Dread that ends up hitting a squadmate instead of just 'being saved'.

I just like to think GW are amping up to release a new dreadnought...that's why they have made them uncompetitive for like...10 years...pretty sad state of affairs when 3 Th + SS terminators would towel up a dreadnought in CC.

Hell, a tactical marine squad will handle any AV12 vehicle in CC via krak grenades. Nothing is more sad then assaulting a maulerfiend into a tac squad and watching it get glanced to death from krak before it can even swing.

If you want to use the wraithlord statline for dreadnoughts, I'd have no real problem with that. Wraithlords are a pretty fair comparison for a normal dreadnought.

It won't make a difference against most incoming fire - assault cannons and shuriken cannons need a 6 to wound you, hence would bypass your save anyway. krak missiles, ion accelerators, biocannons, melta and plasma fire and most ordnance is AP2/3 anyway.

The armour save mostly just makes you resiliant against the massive rate of fire, mid strength stuff like missile pods, scatter lasers and exterminator autocannons - which I wouldn't mind seeing take a knock in effectiveness anyway.

My one comment to the original post: Venerable having an invulnerable save is fine. An Ironclad having a 2+ save is not.

A 2+ save on a toughness 8 monstrous creature - especially one designed for and good at assaults - is a nightmare and needs to be considered very carefully. Wraithlords don't have one. Wraithknights don't have one. There is a reason that even the tyranid hierodule Biotitan - a bloody Lord Of War choice - doesn't have one. The only thing which does - the Hierophant - costs the wrong end of a thousand points, because it renders such a vast swathe of antitank weapons useless.

By all means make the ironclad tougher, but do it by one or two extra wounds, or by making it T9 (which is a better representation of AV13, anyway).

The last comment - Necrons. Necron antitank/antiwalker relies on the Gauss and Haywire rules. It would be worth having something akin to the Cybernetica rules in the Horus Heresy - which allows these special rules to affect it, in return for reduced effect from Poison and Fleshbane.


Oh - and the biggest advantage that wraithlords have is the fact that they are characters (whilst a non-warlord Wraithknight is not). The ability to challenge the guy with the power fist is a scary capability.

What if they just make walkera ignor negative effects, and only suffer HP removal... maybe give them a couple more

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Hell, a tactical marine squad will handle any AV12 vehicle in CC via krak grenades. Nothing is more sad then assaulting a maulerfiend into a tac squad and watching it get glanced to death from krak before it can even swing.

Isn't this very unlikely? 10 tactics with kraks will get an average 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 10 = 5/6 hull points a turn off a dreadnought, while the dreadnought will be taking out 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 2 = 5/6 of a marine. So it should take at least 3 turns to take out the dread, with about 3 marines dying in the process.

Which makes sense as the thing gets swarmed from left and right.

Indeed. Killing a walker with Krak grenades is possible but not easy - and the Maulerfiend specifically is designed to smash immobile targets (buildings and vehicles) rather than stuff that fights back.

Even so, a tactical squad's 10 grenades net 6 2/3 hits, which is one-and-a-bit glancing hits, of which a third then bounce of the Daemon save.

Alcibiades wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Hell, a tactical marine squad will handle any AV12 vehicle in CC via krak grenades. Nothing is more sad then assaulting a maulerfiend into a tac squad and watching it get glanced to death from krak before it can even swing.

Isn't this very unlikely? 10 tactics with kraks will get an average 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 10 = 5/6 hull points a turn off a dreadnought, while the dreadnought will be taking out 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 2 = 5/6 of a marine. So it should take at least 3 turns to take out the dread, with about 3 marines dying in the process.

Which makes sense as the thing gets swarmed from left and right.

Yes it is unlikely. But even going off the statistical average, you don't see the problem in a 100+ point model spending three turns killing 42 points of Marines and then dying? It doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective, as Dreadnoughts can easily handle a squads of infantry that aren't packing melta/power fists, and mechanically, again it's a 100+ point model killing 42 points of MEQ and then dying.

You can argue that infantry aren't the unit type it's designed to fight, but the reality is that AV12 walkers' susceptibility to strength 6+ and their lack of mobility really makes them match-up poorly with pretty much everything.

Definitely not. Walkers could use a boost, but the proliferation of "let's just make robots MCs" is a trend that shouldn't continue. It's stupid.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Hell, a tactical marine squad will handle any AV12 vehicle in CC via krak grenades. Nothing is more sad then assaulting a maulerfiend into a tac squad and watching it get glanced to death from krak before it can even swing.

Isn't this very unlikely? 10 tactics with kraks will get an average 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 10 = 5/6 hull points a turn off a dreadnought, while the dreadnought will be taking out 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 2 = 5/6 of a marine. So it should take at least 3 turns to take out the dread, with about 3 marines dying in the process.

Which makes sense as the thing gets swarmed from left and right.

Yes it is unlikely. But even going off the statistical average, you don't see the problem in a 100+ point model spending three turns killing 42 points of Marines and then dying? It doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective, as Dreadnoughts can easily handle a squads of infantry that aren't packing melta/power fists, and mechanically, again it's a 100+ point model killing 42 points of MEQ and then dying.

You can argue that infantry aren't the unit type it's designed to fight, but the reality is that AV12 walkers' susceptibility to strength 6+ and their lack of mobility really makes them match-up poorly with pretty much everything.

It works in my mind, as I visualize the marines swarming around it. They are supersoldiers after all, not Barney and Fred the normal guys.

If they were AV13, krak grenades wouldn't be useful at all. They should have some use.

If you make dreds and other walkers mc then you'll have alot of gk forceweapon shanagins, can you imagine getting forced to death by a psylincer? And then theres combat can you see a force halbird or what ever taking down a dred? Thats the work of a krak granade at least.

Also with the statline of a 3+ isnt terminator armour actually called tactical drednought armour or something? Meaning a dred should have a 2+ rerole!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you make dreds and other walkers mc then you'll have alot of gk forceweapon shanagins, can you imagine getting forced to death by a psylincer? And then theres combat can you see a force halbird or what ever taking down a dred? Thats the work of a krak granade at least.

Also with the statline of a 3+ isnt terminator armour actually called tactical drednought armour or something? Meaning a dred should have a 2+ rerole!

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: A walker and an MC are totally different things. The problem is GW is blurring the lines between them.... a Walker has a driver/rider and therefore shouldn't be as intuitive/agile as a Monstrous creature which is literally a creature that is large. Obviously a creature which is in its own body will be more at home moving and doing things than a Driver inside of a Walker.

The Riptide isn't a creature -- it's a Walker etc.

If GW actually fixed what is what... then they could actually implement proper rules for both categories that suit them.

Simply giving walkers (and vehicles in general) saves would do the job of making them balanced. if a dread has a 3+ save, it stands the same against a lascannon as it does now - that's fine, lascannons are anti-tank, tanks should get hurt.

However they become much more survivable to AP4+ weapons, like krak grenades, deffguns (lootas), autocannons - stuff that's really for anti-infantry punch. I hate that weapons that are really for mowing down infantry with ease, like deffguns, supa-shootas, serpent shelds are more effective attacking vehicles than infantry, as the vehicle gets no save.

fire a load of deffguns at a wraithlord (T8, 3 wounds) and at a dreadnaught (AV12, 3 HP) and the dreadnaught is more likely to die. hit on 5's and wound/glance on 5's both times, but the lord gets a 3+ save, making it 3 times as survivable - only a third of the wounds go through.

so proper anti-tank weapons would still work the same, but the stuff that glances and chips away at hullpoints would be much less effective, and likely be redirected at the infantry it's supposed to be killing.

Alcibiades wrote:
It works in my mind, as I visualize the marines swarming around it. They are supersoldiers after all, not Barney and Fred the normal guys.

So what? How come "they're super soldiers" means they should be able to wipe a dreadnought, but not a Wraithlord or just about any MC?

If they were AV13, krak grenades wouldn't be useful at all. They should have some use.

Not casually murdering AV12 walkers doesn't mean they have no use. They'll still allow a squad to wreck just about any non-walker vehicle in the game in assault.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
It works in my mind, as I visualize the marines swarming around it. They are supersoldiers after all, not Barney and Fred the normal guys.

So what? How come "they're super soldiers" means they should be able to wipe a dreadnought, but not a Wraithlord or just about any MC?

If they were AV13, krak grenades wouldn't be useful at all. They should have some use.

Not casually murdering AV12 walkers doesn't mean they have no use. They'll still allow a squad to wreck just about any non-walker vehicle in the game in assault.

But they don't casually murder them? I'm not sure what the issue is here. It takes several turns for a full 10-man squad them to do it, statistically, during which the marines will be losing members (and each such loss reduces their attack ability). Probably about 4 turns (most of the average game!), losing about half the squad in the process.

And they can use their krak grenades against MCs, so I'm again not sure what the issue is again.

Carnifex: 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/6
Dreadnought: 1/6

So krak grenades have an exactly equal chance to damage a Carnifex (or any T6 3+ save MC) and an AV12 dreadnought. The Carnie has more wounds than the DN has HPs, so it will last a bit longer, but it is more or less the same thing.

A wraithknight is another issue, but that has to do with its Toughness being 8 and not with it being an MC.

locarno24 wrote:


My one comment to the original post: Venerable having an invulnerable save is fine. An Ironclad having a 2+ save is not.

A 2+ save on a toughness 8 monstrous creature - especially one designed for and good at assaults - is a nightmare and needs to be considered very carefully. Wraithlords don't have one. Wraithknights don't have one. There is a reason that even the tyranid hierodule Biotitan - a bloody Lord Of War choice - doesn't have one. The only thing which does - the Hierophant - costs the wrong end of a thousand points, because it renders such a vast swathe of antitank weapons useless.

By all means make the ironclad tougher, but do it by one or two extra wounds, or by making it T9 (which is a better representation of AV13, anyway).

So...we found that...outside of missile launchers...pretty much anything capable of doing damage to a dread is ap2 anyway...forcing a dreadnought to use its invulnerable save(5++). The 2+ I think is something that's required due to the large amount of grav spam, the fact bolters rapidfiring the back of a dreadnought means one dead dread...and a bunch of other things that generally shouldn't be able to kill it. The 2+ is more for high volume of weak attacks in cc and shooting...that should be irrelevant to an armour that is meant to be the heavy duty man version of terminator armour. Yet...for all purposes...the same amount of terminators in point is better.

Now in relation to close combat...while I understand the relation of armour to toughness...its not quiet that clear cut...there are too many things that allow you to roll 2d6 on the wound/penetration phase of our rule set! MC's, chainfists, melta bombs etc etc They are also quite vulnerable while getting into combat i.e melta, grav and lascannons. Basically...there is armourbane...and melta's...chainfists will tear one up in combat.

Giving an ironclad 2+ and 3++ changed the meta of our group, to include more "rapid respose" melta, and upped the powerfist/terminator count.

It takes several turns for a full 10-man squad them to do it, statistically, during which the marines will be losing members (and each such loss reduces their attack ability). Probably about 4 turns (most of the average game!), losing about half the squad in the process.

They shouldn't kill them at all...a dreadnought should smack down virtually all "troop" units. The ground pound special rule(please read my earlier post) sorted this out. Dreadnoughts shouldn't be tied up in combat for a whole game with a troop unit, they should deal with it in 2-3 turns comfortably. Not quite sure why people don't understand that this thing is meant to be a cc beast...have none of you played dawn or war? lol. Basically id imagine a dreadnought turning the flamers on while spinning backfisting its way through space marines, genestealers, orks etc

The ability for it to take on mc's is for the ironclad, and it lacks a lot of shooting. The shooty dreadnought(say a rifleman set up) lacks the cc punch...

I don't want to seem arrogant...ive tried this rule set, its our only homebrew rule...it works. Dreadnoughts are tougher...usable...and you can field them competitively again. I will say though...the points cost of such a unit is up for debate...I wouldn't be against an increase in points cost...just as long as they..."did what was stated"

]

locarno24 wrote:



They shouldn't kill them at all...a dreadnought should smack down virtually all "troop" units. The ground pound special rule(please read my earlier post) sorted this out. Dreadnoughts shouldn't be tied up in combat for a whole game with a troop unit, they should deal with it in 2-3 turns comfortably. Not quite sure why people don't understand that this thing is meant to be a cc beast...

Carnifexes are also meant to be a CC beast. They can also be tied up in combat for a whole game by a troop unit. So can Wraithknights. This is a feature, not a bug, of MCs; it's why some MCs have special features allowing them to circumvent this (toxic miasma, gaze of death). And a Dreadnought (or Sentinel, or Triarch Stalker) is basically a vehicle version of an MC, which duplicates its design feature -- which is that, being one thing, it has a small number of attacks. It's designed that way.

It is not being a vehicle that is not letting the dreadnought deal with troops comfortably in 2-3 turns; it is the fact that it has 2 attacks. Ditto for the Carnifex. Making it into a Monstrous Critter won't do anything.

I think the problem with vehicles could be easily remedied by simply removing the book-keeping of the Vehicle Damage Table or by making these effects only occur sometimes (such as Critical Hits of some variety). Frankly I think that shots should either Penetrate or Not Penetrate, there shouldn't even be Glancing Hits at all, they should just count as being ineffective shots.

Frankly I think the vehicle rules could do with an overhaul, especially with Flyers having been added to the mix now. Single Armour value with Front Armour and Side Armour being simple bonuses (for example, +1 Armour vs front of vehicle for Tanks, etc), removal of the Vehicle Damage Table or having it re-situated to a Critical Hit table, removal of Glancing Hits, and if the rest of the rules remain the same giving Walkers a bit more of a shine with some added special rules.

Also, here's an idea for a unique pair of special rules that all Walkers would get (assume these are the only special rules they get):

Striding Terrors
Walkers have the Fear special rule. In addition, Walkers can fire one of any of their Assault, Rapid Fire, Salvo or Heavy weapons for Overwatch and do so at their full Ballistic Skill.

Colossus of the Battlefield
Walkers have the Hammer of Wrath special rule, and ignore Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken results on the vehicle damage table on a d6 roll of 2+. In addition, a Walker's Hammer of Wrath attacks strike with an AP value depending on their Side Armour value (see below).
10 or less: AP 6
11: AP 5
12: AP 4
13: AP 3
14: AP 2

Marik...I have a game later tonight...ill give your rule set a run for a week or so(2-3 games) and then make a comment.

As expressed...im a fan of armour saves...and an invulnerable associated with the dreadnought(explain to me how a terminator in tactical dreadnought armour get a 2+ and 5++ or 3++) and a dreadnought covered in more armour...then ironclad...does not get any save...at all...

Carnifexes are also meant to be a CC beast. They can also be tied up in combat for a whole game by a troop unit. So can Wraithknights. This is a feature, not a bug, of MCs; it's why some MCs have special features allowing them to circumvent this (toxic miasma, gaze of death). And a Dreadnought (or Sentinel, or Triarch Stalker) is basically a vehicle version of an MC, which duplicates its design feature -- which is that, being one thing, it has a small number of attacks. It's designed that way.

You are having a hard time convincing me here...carnifex has more attacks base, a save, and the ability to have 3 in a unit...meaning essentially a 360 point carnifex squad has 12 wounds, 9 attacks, 3+ armour save, does not become less effective as it has wounds inflicted. if I had 360 points of dreads..roughly...9 hps, 6 attacks, no save, no more elite slots and the ability to die from one hit from any penetrating hit.

Wraithknights are highly unlikely to get tied up in combat with a 10 man marine squad for more than 3 turns...

I don't think dreadnoughts should be MC's I think they are walkers...I think they should be competitive with an mc in close combat...maybe a little worse off, and highly effected against vanilla MEQ or hordes. Essentially I view dreadnoughts as big terminators...do you want the assault one or the dakka one?

The fact they don't have an armour save is a bit worrying. I literally played 6th for a month and quit. 7th is better...but I wont step foot in a GW to play or purchase any more models until the gameplay is resolved...ill play in my group with the homebrew ruleset for walkers in place. Keen to start working on a whole vehicle armour save scenario. I am hopeful the new marines codex next year gives walkers saves and invulnerables and that they are not some stupid 6+ invulnerable.

The problem with vehicles vs MC mostly lies not in them. But in the weapons avaliable to effectively deal with them.

Melta, haywire, high str low ap, mid str spam kill vehicles dead. With a chance of insta-death in case of low ap or OT vehicles. And such weaponry is easilly avaliable to almost everyone.

Instant death weapons are killing mc dead. Such weapons are extremely rare and cost premium. While MC are much more durable vs AT weaponry than tanks.

guys I have a set of rules and statline for our homebrew rule regarding making these guys effective again...am I allowed to post that? is anyone interested? lol

In proposed rules thread. Sure. But you should probably find the existing propositions. There are lots of them, so it's better to read through them first not to copy someone accidentally.

Dreadnought Rules, stats and costings
WS BS S FrontSide Rear I A HP Sv Cost
Dreadnought 4 4 6 12 12 10 4 2 3 2+ 110
Venerable 5 5 6 12 12 10 4 3 3 2+ 135
Ironclad 4 4 6 13 13 10 4 3(4) 3 2+ 145

Dreadnought and Venerable Dreadnought
War Gear
• Powerfist with built in Storm bolter
• Multi-Melta
• Searchlight
• Smoke Launchers
• Dreadnought Armour


Special Rules
• Venerable(venerable only)
• Walker extra armour
• Hammer of Wrath
Options
May replace Multi-melta with one of the following
- Twin-Linked Auto Cannon..........................................................................................5 points
- Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer.........................................................................................5 points
- Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter..........................................................................................5 points
- Plasma Cannon........................................................................................................10 points
- Assault Cannon........................................................................................................20 Points
- Twin-Linked Lascannon............................................................................................25 Points
May replace storm bolter with heavy flamer........................................................................10 Points
May take Extra Armour..........................................................................................................10 Points
May replace powerfist and Storm Bolter with one of the following
- Missile Launcher.......................................................................................................10 Points
- Twin-Linked Auto Cannon.........................................................................................15 Points
Venerable may take an Iron Halo...........................................................................................25 points
This unit can select a drop pod as dedicated transport

Ironclad Dreadnought

War Gear
• Powerfist with built in Storm bolter
• Seismic Hammer with Built in Meltagun
• Extra Armour
• Searchlight
• Smoke Launchers
• Dreadnought Armour


Special Rules
• Walker Extra Armour
• Hammer of Wrath
• Move Through Cover

Options
May replace storm bolter with heavy flamer........................................................................10 Points
May replace Meltagun with heavy flamer.............................................................................Free
May replace powerfist and Storm Bolter with Hurricane Bolter...........................................Free
May replace its seismic Hammer with Chainfist....................................................................Free
May Take Dreadnought Storm Shield....................................................................................30 Points
May take up to 2 Hunter Killer Missiles.........................................................................10 Points each
May take ironclad assault launchers......................................................................................10 Points
This unit can select a drop pod as dedicated transport

Special Rules
Walker Extra Armour – Walkers with extra armour ignore glancing blows in close combat. This rule does not affect the shooting phase.
War Gear
Dreadnought Armour – Dreadnought armour provides the bearer with a 2+ Save and a 5++ Invulnerable Save.
Dreadnought Storm Shield – The Dreadnought Storm shield provides a 3++ Invulnerable save, it does not restrict the bearer from additional attacks from wielding dual close combat weapons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
We have been running dreadnoughts in this rule set for a while now. It makes them into a solid CC unit and thus allows them to be a good all rounder again.

We found the most popular build to be a venerable with twin autocannons and iron halo and extra armour. Coming in at 190 points. Or about the same price as a tactical squad with a little extra.

The ironclads made a return as shock units which were capable of surviving past the actual drop.

Id love to get some feeback guys. I can tell you this has been play tested for about 50 games now, and it seems to work quite well. I think maybe its time armour got a save...

Nid/ CSM player here, and I'd just like to remind everyone that even though Walkers need some help, You can't just compare them to the " super good" MC's out there. Yeah, riptides need to be jetpack walkers because that is what they are, and wraithKnight should be jump walkers. However , I see this AV 12 2+ walker that ignores glancing hits in CC and I wonder, where is the extra armour for my Carnifex that prevents it from being wounded at its minimum threshold? (basically making it so it cant be hurt by S3 in cc , and S 10 only wounds on 3+) And why does it cost less than my 'fex which can potentially be gunned down by freaking lasguns??

Believe me, I want walkers to be awesome. I want a reason to use my helbrute ever. I just dont want to see them out-class the average MC in nearly every way.

the 2+ is really only to stop it getting bolt gunned to death in the rear armour...most weapons that can hurt the walker are ap 2(exception...missile launcher) forcing it to have a 5++. Ignoring Glacing hits in CC made it a good CC unit. Most things that should be killing it in CC either have powerfists, or smash special rules. Play a few games with it and give me some feedback? We still find the MC's to beat up the regular dreadnoughts, in cc, due to Smash, and armourbane weapons i.e Crushing claws, chainfists etc

MC's cant have weapons blown off them, or be immobilised.

Maybe the removal of extra armour ignoring glances in cc might help?

Once I get home I guess. With these changes to the standard pattern, how will the contemptor fair?

Here's a something for you to consider. Rather than a ++, how about something like

[Fancy word] Plating: Glancing hits scored against the rear armour of the (dreadnought) in the shooting phase are ignored on a 4+. Does not work against weapons with the lance, melta rules or whose AP2 or better.

I like the idea of it. You bring up a fair point with the Nid mcs in particular. They do have trouble with an ironclad rocking a storm shield 3++. That changes with crushing claws though, and carnifexes...you can take 9 carnifexes...

I don't like the idea of removing an invulnerable. I think if terminator armour is 2+ and 5++ this is meant to be heaps better.

I think ultimately, the Dreadnoughts should be capable of fighting an MC and have the potential to win. I view an ironclad as the ideal example of this...its built for fighting.

In relation to your earlier point...of removing the armour save for glances in CC...I view it the other way, I view the glance as having not penetrated...therefore...the armour did its job...your toughness value dosnt have a situation of...oh your close...good enough...lose a wound. In addition to the MC vs walker trade off, under these rules, walkers can still be immobilised and lose weapons etc, the MC's cant. A carnifex is a very good example of what goes up against walkers...and why does the carnifex win?

4 wounds vs 3 Hull points...
Armour Save...
No immobilised or weapon destroyed
5 Attacks standard - carnifex could dismiss the dread in a round of combat...the dreadnought is highly unlikely to have the same potential
120 point fex vs 110point dreadnought(dreadnought would need to be a 160 point ven with iron halo to "compete" in CC, or a 175 point CC specialist ironclad with SS to be likely to win, then...a 2nd or third carnifex could be involved, and simply steam roll it.

The Carnifex is ment for anti-tank it should win it. Those 4 wounds also disapear rapidly by a far wider range of weapons thenn could hurt a dread.

Compare it to say a 190 point trygon and sudenly the dread is looking much beter.

a 3+ armor save would be enough to make dreads compete.

Less strong against low ap AT weapons but better against everything else compared to a mc.