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So I keep reading about 40k having a horrible sense of scale (and I agree). But there isnt a big list of failures in this regard I could find out there. For example C.S Gotto has a big list of things wrong with his books out there, movies have cinema sins on you tube and the list goes on.

So maybe a Tally of 40k sins could be a fun list to make (background only, not in game stuff).

So if we could back it up with sources etc I think it could be a fun discussion.

So things like numbers of Space Marines or the sizes of battles etc as easy ones to get out of the way. So nitpick at the silly little things and back them up with sources or info.

This is a thread for nitpicking.

I am very interested to see what comes up.



Quick list:

Siege of Vraks = 8 Million Casualties. WW1 = 10 Million dead alone. Missing and wounded number in the 25 million mark. Fail

50k ish Sisters of Battle? Fail

I think you will find it difficult to make a list everyone will agree to.

But a few things on it might reach consensus.

One that's always annoyed me was the casualty list for the Siege of Vraks. 8 Million? In a war across an entire planet? World War 1 had 100 Million casualties alone and it was just Europe not the entire planet. If it was 8 billion casualties that would be much more believable.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think you will find it difficult to make a list everyone will agree to.

But a few things on it might reach consensus.

Yea I understand that. The game attracts many view points and different people. But this is why I wanted sources etc. So people couldnt just say crap and we could hopefully find a general consensus on some things.

Just out of interest really.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think you will find it difficult to make a list everyone will agree to.

But a few things on it might reach consensus.

Yea I understand that. The game attracts many view points and different people. But this is why I wanted sources etc. So people couldnt just say crap and we could hopefully find a general consensus on some things.

Just out of interest really.

Yeah I know what you mean but I was not talking about sources. Just as a made-up example, say that Imperial Guard Regiment X consists of 10000 soldiers and this is a stated fact, one player thinks this is stupid and should be on the list but another thinks it is OK.

But whatever. We'll see.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
One that's always annoyed me was the casualty list for the Siege of Vraks. 8 Million? In a war across an entire planet? World War 1 had 100 Million casualties alone and it was just Europe not the entire planet. If it was 8 billion casualties that would be much more believable.

While I know what you are trying to say, this is where sources are important.

WW1 was in europe, Pacific, Middle East etc etc and 40k doesnt have casualties that include disease, wounded or anything like that.

So area of world effected by ww1

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_World_War_I

Casualties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I

10 million from military dead alone not including wounded or missing or the disease after the war.

So yes, siege of craks is a pretty minor conflict given the battlefield etc.

Sin number one.

People certainly die from wounds. 40K guns are strong, medication is expensive, and lives are cheap,

I still agree with votlw here.

 Ashiraya wrote:
People certainly die from wounds. 40K guns are strong, medication is expensive, and lives are cheap,

I still agree with votlw here.

Yea its pretty bad numbers given the conflict size. But if someone dies from a wound its no longer on the wounded casualty list (provided it was done correctly) so in theory wounded in action survived battles.

Do 40k Casualties take into account the wounded?

The 1000 man Space Marine Chapters is one big fail of scale.

Yes, they are elite soldiers. Yes, they can hit hard anywhere if they use drop pods, Thunderhawks or other flyers. But they can't stay to watch it. Putting a single marine to watch a busy street corner or a squad to watch a whole city - there's no way they could intercept enough of anything worthwhile.

They can sure hammer a place hard, overrun it and take out key people - but if everyone (or many many) are against it there's no way they could actually KEEP anything. It might ofc be a failure of the fluff, not telling us how many IG soldiers per marine have been sent to the same warzone. But marines are like the air force or tanks - they can take or destroy, they don't have enough boots on the ground to hold.

Spetulhu wrote:
The 1000 man Space Marine Chapters is one big fail of scale.

Yes, they are elite soldiers. Yes, they can hit hard anywhere if they use drop pods, Thunderhawks or other flyers. But they can't stay to watch it. Putting a single marine to watch a busy street corner or a squad to watch a whole city - there's no way they could intercept enough of anything worthwhile.

They can sure hammer a place hard, overrun it and take out key people - but if everyone (or many many) are against it there's no way they could actually KEEP anything. It might ofc be a failure of the fluff, not telling us how many IG soldiers per marine have been sent to the same warzone. But marines are like the air force or tanks - they can take or destroy, they don't have enough boots on the ground to hold.

I dont think anyone will disagree with this one. Added to the list.

Far to few Marines for the job at hand.

I disagree!

 Ashiraya wrote:
I disagree!

Hmmmm

Alright then. Why so?

If countless numbers of Guard Armies are unable to be everywhere needed, how are a tiny amount of Space Marines able to do it? Baring in mind thats like a quarter of my country being turned into super soldiers being somehow able to subdue the world. Except the 40k universe is huge!

Spetulhu wrote:
The 1000 man Space Marine Chapters is one big fail of scale.

Yes, they are elite soldiers. Yes, they can hit hard anywhere if they use drop pods, Thunderhawks or other flyers. But they can't stay to watch it. Putting a single marine to watch a busy street corner or a squad to watch a whole city - there's no way they could intercept enough of anything worthwhile.

They can sure hammer a place hard, overrun it and take out key people - but if everyone (or many many) are against it there's no way they could actually KEEP anything. It might ofc be a failure of the fluff, not telling us how many IG soldiers per marine have been sent to the same warzone. But marines are like the air force or tanks - they can take or destroy, they don't have enough boots on the ground to hold.

Their job is no longer holding areas or planets as it was in during the great crusade - and even then, they didnt stay in planets for long. Thats the job of the imperial army - or the astra militarum in the 41st millennium. Their job is getting in, killing and getting out.

In other instances they serve as the elite support for the AM/IG and become force multipliers.

They should have bigger chapters, indeed. But the point remains - their purpose has changed throughout the years

You hit it on the head. They are scalpels, they remove something and then get out fast. Or they boost morale of guardsmen holding a line. They are numerous enough for the job they do, just not holding things, so that's not really a fail of scale.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I disagree!

Hmmmm

Alright then. Why so?

If countless numbers of Guard Armies are unable to be everywhere needed, how are a tiny amount of Space Marines able to do it? Baring in mind thats like a quarter of my country being turned into super soldiers being somehow able to subdue the world. Except the 40k universe is huge!

Their job is not to hold ground. That's what the guard is for.

The marines are there to fight stuff guardsmen can't fight, like daemons or eldar.

 troa wrote:
You hit it on the head. They are scalpels, they remove something and then get out fast. Or they boost morale of guardsmen holding a line. They are numerous enough for the job they do, just not holding things, so that's not really a fail of scale.

That many Marines could not be where they are needed across a vast amount of battlefields and not be spread thin.

Think about how many there are, then think about how large the area of Space they are covering will be, then think about how many will be needed to do the job and so forth.

It would be like Judge Dredd. So many places need the Marine help, but very few would get it. Which means there are far too few.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I disagree!

Hmmmm

Alright then. Why so?

If countless numbers of Guard Armies are unable to be everywhere needed, how are a tiny amount of Space Marines able to do it? Baring in mind thats like a quarter of my country being turned into super soldiers being somehow able to subdue the world. Except the 40k universe is huge!

Their job is not to hold ground. That's what the guard is for.

The marines are there to fight stuff guardsmen can't fight, like daemons or eldar.

In my imperial guard codex, 3rd edition. There is a guard regiment who specializes in capturing eldar specimens for study at prestigious learning centers.

Also read above.

3rd edition is old. It's your favourite edition but it is still outdated.

Marines are only where they are needed the most. Eldar do not strike that often, and neither really do Daemons, though the attacks are becoming more common.

@Swas~

Thats kind of the point of the setting. Its GrimDark. All of it. Marines are needed everywhere but they are so few that they can't be everywhere.

Also, we focus on stories about marines because they are simply awesome (and they sell. and don't even get started on that... GW is not a charity - they produce what sells the most!) - that doesn't mean they're everywhere, however.

 Ashiraya wrote:
3rd edition is old. It's your favourite edition but it is still outdated.

Marines are only where they are needed the most. Eldar do not strike that often, and neither really do Daemons, though the attacks are becoming more common.

Old or not, still a thing.

And to teban, I think its cool how there are too few. But I think its a bit too few to do what they are meant to do. Like unbelievably few.

I will put it as contested fail for now

Space Marines being too few and being unable to be everywhere at once is, to me, one of many reasons why the Imperium is being pushed back and thus adds to the grimdark.

Hey, YMMV.

Yep. I'd add a 0 to their numbers. that would put them on par with the great crusade numbers.. sort of.

teban wrote:
Yep. I'd add a 0 to their numbers. that would put them on par with the great crusade numbers.. sort of.

Yea, I would settle for an extra 0 to be mildly useful. That 0 would go a very long way. Safe to put it as a bit of a fail?

Put it as contested.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines being too few and being unable to be everywhere at once is, to me, one of many reasons why the Imperium is being pushed back and thus adds to the grimdark.

Hey, YMMV.

Yea, but for me, at that number, they may as well not exist.

But yes, YMV


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Put it as contested.

Its on thin ice, but for now it will remain haha.

Also recall that there are approximately a thousand chapters of space marines. One million space marines still isn't a huge number when compared to the vatness of imperial space and beyond. However, one million elite soldiers on the level of space marines is still a considerable well of strength to call upon.

zeromaeus wrote:
Also recall that there are approximately a thousand chapters of space marines. One million space marines still isn't a huge number when compared to the vatness of imperial space and beyond. However, one million elite soldiers on the level of space marines is still a considerable well of strength to call upon.

Yes, but is 1 million elite soldiers spread thinly (I dont think whole chapters stick together a lot of the time. As many are on their already huge amount of duties etc). So getting more than a minor party of like 10 SM would seem like a miracle given the situation.

I think it's sort of too difficult to retcon such numbers and thus GW sticks to 1k per chapter.

There are way too many books that would need a 2nd edition... and that'd be expensive.

 Swastakowey wrote:

That many Marines could not be where they are needed across a vast amount of battlefields and not be spread thin.

Think about how many there are, then think about how large the area of Space they are covering will be, then think about how many will be needed to do the job and so forth.

It would be like Judge Dredd. So many places need the Marine help, but very few would get it. Which means there are far too few.

But I think that's part of the point. They are far too few. Even with a thousand Chapters, there's far too few Marines to do all of the things that Marines could do. Whole planets get abandoned, even solar systems. Guardsmen fight wars for decades before the Marines show up to 'end a war' in a decisive assault. Most guardsmen haven't even SEEN a marine in the flesh, much less fought alongside them. The Imperium would be better off if there were a hundred times more marines, or a thousand times more marines, or a million times more marines, but the Imperium doesn't have the knowledge, resources, and capacity of doing that. Plus, being less selective about recruitment led to problems during the Horus Heresy, and afterwards (Cursed Foundings, chapters corrupted by the Alpha Legion, genetic deviancy, renegades, etc.).

Plus, I don't think that Marines are willing to spread themselves thin for most military actions. In some battles an entire Company (or even several companies) show up. I'm not saying the marines 'go big or go home', but I don't think they send out 5 marines to this fight, and 15 marines to that one. They pick battles of their own choosing, based on ancient pacts, enmities, and oaths, and then kick ass and leave. Occasionally you will have a situation where a Chapter sends out a single squad to help someone, but it definitely seems to be based on an exceptional circumstance (an exceptional circumstance in a civilization of thousands of worlds, which probably happens A LOT, statistically).

I'm not claiming that 40K doesn't have problems of scale, but the Astartes don't function like modern marines, or even SEALS or other special forces. They are way more elite than that. The quote where it mentions "there is less than one marine for each planet of the Imperium, yet that is sufficient (or whatever)", I think, hints at that. It's not saying that ONE MARINE can take care of each planet, but that, percentage-wise, there's less than one per planetary population, but, even those small numbers have prevented the Imperium from collapsing.

We don't have a level of 'special forces' that special, on Earth. The Astartes, as a percentage of population, are less than one per planet in a massive Imperium, while our most elite special forces are hundreds or thousands of guys on one single, not particularly overpopulated, planet. It should be hazardous to draw too many analogies between those real world forces and Astartes.

Alright. If the fluff is meant to be that there is not enough. Technically its not a fail.

So removing from the list.

As much as I disagree.

Not every planet is at war or needs the marines either... So that helps the marines quite a bit.

Want to know what is too few? Sisters of battle. Like 50k. Tops. For the whole galaxy. Kudos, GW!

:(