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 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Ewww, no thanks. Seven feet, that's not much taller than my brother.

So? What your brother got to do with this?

Seems absurd a healthy specimen with huge armour and superhuman buffs would not be taller.

How it is absurd? Giants that are unable to operate in a human scale world seem much more absurd to me.

In a BL novel whose name eludes me (I can dig up the source if you are interested) a Marine outside of armour is described as half again the height of a man, with a chest like a dining table and hands like shovels.

Assuming this man is about six feet (he did seem well-grown) this would put the marine at a very reasonable nine feet.

Seems kinda vague.

Clearly all those 7 feet references are outdated (Like the rather overrated Goodwin statement) or just in-universe propaganda to make Marine feats seem even more incredible!

Unlike BL, the design studio has been really consistent with this over the years. And current CSM book is obviously not outdated.

And before you mention doorways and ceilings, have you noticed how oversized Imperial architecture is? At nine feet they could operate where it matters without issues. In the rare cases where there is a doorway that's too low, just snashing through is child's play for them.

Rhino was originally designed to be used by normal humans.

All this is my opinion, of course. Calling it 'hilarious' when others disagree with yours is needlessly dismissive. We're all friends here.

Well, I find it somewhat amusing when people ignore the clearly stated fluff and then complain that the game does not match the fanfiction in their heads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
I there even a mention of how many Major Orders there are?

There's six of them.

Bloody Rose, Sacred Rose, Ebon Chalice, Martyred Lady, Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud.

Yes, but there are countless minor orders, so there actually can be quite a lot of sisters.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

I believe marines are average 8 feet tall. I remember from the book Rynns World, a Crimson Fist codicier was 6 feet tall and was constantly mocked for being significantly shorter than his brothers

Would fit the seven feet figure. A whole foot shorter is significantly shorter.

Yeah, Ik. I think they would average 8 feet tall. The book doesn't say exactly how tall he is. He could be 6'2 (which is unlikely because he would be my exact height and I'm obviously human ), he could be 6'5 or even 6'8. Regardless, my personal thoughts is that an average sized marine would be (without armour) 7'6 - 8'3 and weighing about 500lbs - 700lbs. GW never gives direct numbers though and when they do, it doesn't make too much sense. So everybody can imagine how tall they believe marines should be and nobody can argue because there is no concrete evidence to support any one theory.

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
I've always had a bit of a problem with the Guard being viewed as expendable cannon-fodder.

IIRC the Guard are usually the cream of a planets PDF, so they are pretty decent troops to begin with. Then they get further training en route to whatever warzone the regiment is assigned to.

However my biggest gripe is as to the view that they're expendable. Yes, there are billions of troops in the Guard. Yes, the Imperium can raise billions more if need be. But if you're in command of an army to re-take a rebellious world, even if you have five million Guardsmen that's not a lot of bodies to subdue an entire world. On top of all that you can't absolutely rely on reinforcements - it's all very fine and well having billions of Guardsmen but they're not much help to you if you're stuck on a planet in an area with warp storms and you're not even sure your request for reinforcements was received.

Even if you do get reinforcements sent, it's not like nowadays when you can reasonably expect them to be with you in a certain time. Thanks to the vagaries of warp travel they might be flung off course by hundreds of light years, they might never come back out of warp space, a passing inquisitor might requisition the lot to go hunt for some random xenos artefact, or they might arrive at their destination anywhere from a few days to a few thousand years late.

This never really used to be the case. When I read the older fluff in codices etc their militaries worked like ours. The only place I have heard of the PDF being less than the guard is on the web. In my old dex they have pictures of riot cavalry which are apart of regiments. Im fairly sure it talks about guard acting as pdf as well and pdf where only less experienced due to a lack of fighting. The guard that I have read about in personal letters etc throughout the fluff are just people that got recruited from their homes or conscripted and sent straight to a front with training on transit and gear on loading.

It made a point of stating some commanders are heartless and send them in waves while others are more careful with losses. Nobody cares unless the job is done and its up to the commander to work out how best to do it. I think people just assume that the guard die in waves because its what turned out to be popular over the more sensible way of going about how the guard works.

I just tell people there is no standard or absolute in the imperial guard. They are, can and will be anything with anything that can and do do anything. Restricted by imagination only. Which it states many times in the fluff. Yet people flock to some kind of "guard standard".

Just how I view it. No idea what the new dex says. Just read the 3rd edition and some of the 4th edition codices for imperial guard and you will see the best guard fluff by GW (in my opinion).

 Swastakowey wrote:
Alright. If the fluff is meant to be that there is not enough. Technically its not a fail.

So removing from the list.

As much as I disagree.

Disagree with taking them off. The Imperium has a billion worlds. 1 million space marines means 1 marine for every 1,000 worlds. That's not just not enough, that's practically non-existent.

 SkavenLord wrote:
Would the whole "Magnus can't use the warp but Space Wolves can because they say it's from Fenris" debate count?

I get tired of that debate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If one SM is equal to 100 guardsmen, each chapter is like 100,000 humans. Isn't that the size of a guard regiment?

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Alright. If the fluff is meant to be that there is not enough. Technically its not a fail.

So removing from the list.

As much as I disagree.

Disagree with taking them off. The Imperium has a billion worlds. 1 million space marines means 1 marine for every 1,000 worlds. That's not just not enough, that's practically non-existent.

I agree as well. But it seems the most vocal are against that notion. If a few more people express disinterest I will add it back to the fail list.

It is ridiculous though.

On my phone, so the quotes will be a pain. But I will try. Please shark with me.

 Crimson wrote:

So? What your brother got to do with this?

Well, they are pretty consistently described as of superhuman size. Seven feet is not superhuman. But with that bulk, nine is.

How it is absurd? Giants that are unable to operate in a human scale world seem much more absurd to me.

I already adressed this. Imperial architecture is oversized.

Seems kinda vague.

Seems clear enough to me, and it does show that there is precedent. Falsely naming this 'fanfiction' won't aid your arguments.

Unlike BL, the design studio has been really consistent with this over the years. And current CSM book is obviously not outdated.

So? It is still subject to 'anything can be in-universe propaganda'.

Rhino was originally designed to be used by normal humans.

And? It is just as subject to Imperial oversizing. It seems rather obvious they'd scale up the blueprint when it was adapted for Astartes use. In fact, in its current scale, it is impossible to fit ten Marines into it, whether they are seven feet or nine, and even then the Marines are undersized!

Well, I find it somewhat amusing when people ignore the clearly stated fluff and then complain that the game does not match the fanfiction in their heads.

This is 40k. There is no clearly stated fluff, especially not numbers and sizes.

Also, I am not here for your amusement, I am here to debate. Unnecessary condescension is unnecessary. Respect thine fellow Dakkanaut.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Well, they are pretty consistently described as of superhuman size. Seven feet is not superhuman. But with that bulk, nine is.

According to whom? Has the EU Committee of Superman Sizing perhaps decreed 8 feet ten inches to be a minimum acceptable size for a being labelled as 'superman'? (in that case someone needs to tell DC, poor old Kal is just a bit over six feet...)

In reality seven feet is huge, especially if a person also has bulk.

I already adressed this. Imperial architecture is oversized.

And weapons? Normal humans can use some of the same weapons as the Space Marines.

So? It is still subject to 'anything can be in-universe propaganda'.

So clear statement that marines are seven feet tall, Jervis saying so, his scale drawing showing so are propaganda, but some BL story with vague references to giant marines is not?

And? It is just as subject to Imperial oversizing. It seems rather obvious they'd scale up the blueprint when it was adapted for Astartes use. In fact, in its current scale, it is impossible to fit ten Marines into it, whether they are seven feet or nine, and even then the Marines are undersized!

So there are actually different sizes of Rhinos? Do Inquisition perhaps use these human scale Rhinos, so that two models that are exactly same in the tabletop are actually completely different sizes? the scale of the models might be slightly off, but assuming that it would be as much as 50% off is just ludicrous.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Well, they are pretty consistently described as of superhuman size. Seven feet is not superhuman. But with that bulk, nine is.

Seven feet and the bulk of enhanced muscle growth and strenghtened bone structure would easily look superhuman. A very skinny marine would still look like one of those "world's strongest man" contestants. Just check the guy playing Ser Clegane in Game of Thrones right now - he's "only" 6' 9'' (206 cm) and already towers above people. And all that muscle only makes it look like he's normal at first glance, until you notice how tall he is.

You'll have to excuse me, Crimson, if it may take as much as a week for me to respond with a proper post. I can think of a good one, but I am out of town and can't access my books or computer, and this phone is limited. But ftr, I have at least two separate sources explaining Marine weaponry are far beyond humans' ability to fire or even lift.

Superhuman = above human. There have been bulky 7ft humans, but not bulky 9ft humans.

To your 'clear statement' paragraph: indeed, that is my opinion. And you have absolutely nothing that can disprove it. GW's 'nothing is canon' stance means no source is waterproof. Not the codex, not Goodwin, nothing. And if you insist on calling this ludicrous, I am not sure if anything could convince you otherwise.

And different Rhino sizes, why not? It makes perfect sense.

So to you 'superhuman' means bigger and better in every way, in every category, than any normal human that has ever existed? Let's just say that it isn't a definition I would use.

As for believing that two bolters or Rhinos that in game have exactly identical looking, identical sized models with identical rules would in 'reality' be two completely different sized weapons or vehicles with completely different properties... Well, to me that is just completely ludicrous idea.

No. Superhuman means above human limits. As they are consistently described as being of superhuman size, well, figure out the rest yourself.

Game mechanics are irrelevant, model scale is highly flawed as-is... Do you really think the human rhino would hold 10 Marines? FW says it is 5-6 meters IIRC, which must refer to a human rhino. Hell, drop pods are colossal (I'll link you the source for that in due time as said) and why eould Rhinos be much smaller?

Marines have superhuman strength, speed, and resilience. They are not described having superhuman size.

FW says that Rhino is 6.6m ('War Machines of Adeptus Astartes) and that pretty much matches the model scale when compared to the stated sizes of IG vehicles. and is also pretty close to the scale of the infantry models if we assume that 3cm is roughly 6 feet.

Heroic proportions and bases of the models make it hard to judge what would fit inside what, but 6.6m is actually decent sized APC. However, there's no way 9 feet tall marines could use it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not remember that, and I have read the book. I will have to check when I get home on sunday.

That said, now we just need a 10 foot marine propagator and the circle is complete.

Marneus Calgar. He is the biggest and bestest of all the spehss mureenz fur evar and evar!

 Mythantor wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
Let's talk about Vraks, because I think its interesting. 8 million is the number of combat fatalities being thrown around here, but both lexicanum and warhammer 40k wiki say 14 million for the guard alone, and an unknown number of chaos soldiers.

14 million deaths isn't that high compared to the world wars, ww2 had between 50 and 80 million deaths depending on your source of choice, ww1 had 17 million, most of those confined to a relatively small area of actual combat. However, a sizable majority of ww2s deaths were civilian deaths, because being around a warzone tends to not be good for ones health. WW1 is interesting because not only do military deaths outnumber civilian deaths, but also most of the deaths are directly attributable to enemy action rather than disease.

So where does that leave vraks? 14 million military deaths is a staggeringly high amount considering that the imperium has far better medicine than 20th century earth and disease tends to not be a real problem for the guard. I just don't see hwo 14 million people can die due to enemy action, that's a lot of killing.

Remember the siege of Vraks lasted for about 8 years with both sides being reinforced alot.

Also while the Guard tactics werent as bad as many people make them out to be, they were trying to take a take a fortress the size of Britain.

This is going to sound counter-intuitive, but combat just isn't that lethal. The imperium has very advanced medical technology and many of the wounded would live and probably be rotated back into the lines with augmetics and more experience. Soldiers who survive their first battle are far more likely to survive the next ten.

Thats why WW1 is such an odd case, because most of the deaths were combat related, not disease related, because for most of human history large scale organized camping is much more deadly than combat. But the imperium doesn't have to worry about disease either, not to the extent other armies had to.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
Let's talk about Vraks, because I think its interesting. 8 million is the number of combat fatalities being thrown around here, but both lexicanum and warhammer 40k wiki say 14 million for the guard alone, and an unknown number of chaos soldiers.

14 million deaths isn't that high compared to the world wars, ww2 had between 50 and 80 million deaths depending on your source of choice, ww1 had 17 million, most of those confined to a relatively small area of actual combat. However, a sizable majority of ww2s deaths were civilian deaths, because being around a warzone tends to not be good for ones health. WW1 is interesting because not only do military deaths outnumber civilian deaths, but also most of the deaths are directly attributable to enemy action rather than disease.

So where does that leave vraks? 14 million military deaths is a staggeringly high amount considering that the imperium has far better medicine than 20th century earth and disease tends to not be a real problem for the guard. I just don't see hwo 14 million people can die due to enemy action, that's a lot of killing.

Remember the siege of Vraks lasted for about 8 years with both sides being reinforced alot.

Also while the Guard tactics werent as bad as many people make them out to be, they were trying to take a take a fortress the size of Britain.

This is going to sound counter-intuitive, but combat just isn't that lethal. The imperium has very advanced medical technology and many of the wounded would live and probably be rotated back into the lines with augmetics and more experience. Soldiers who survive their first battle are far more likely to survive the next ten.

Thats why WW1 is such an odd case, because most of the deaths were combat related, not disease related, because for most of human history large scale organized camping is much more deadly than combat. But the imperium doesn't have to worry about disease either, not to the extent other armies had to.

Which is right, which is why earlier I asked if the GW figures of casualties meant KIA only or if it counted everything else.

but why wouldnt the imperium worry about disease? What kind of diseases may be in wait on planets the regiments have never come to before etc?

I think the main problem is GW being too vague on too many things. But if the enemy lost (did they?) then surely the slaughter of all them would put the number higher than 8 million easily?

The imperium has the technology to replace limbs and regrow flesh, not to mention mind impulse units. I am going to guess they have mastered inoculation and anti-biotics.

 EmilCrane wrote:
The imperium has the technology to replace limbs and regrow flesh, not to mention mind impulse units. I am going to guess they have mastered inoculation and anti-biotics.

On a mass scale though? I don't know. It's another issue of space magic and as others know I don't get on well with space magic. On my phone so here is my lazy reply

 Swastakowey wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
The imperium has the technology to replace limbs and regrow flesh, not to mention mind impulse units. I am going to guess they have mastered inoculation and anti-biotics.

On a mass scale though? I don't know. It's another issue of space magic and as others know I don't get on well with space magic. On my phone so here is my lazy reply

Really depends on what fluff you read, most Guard books will portray them with at least WW2 level logistics. In fact there was an entire Gaunts Ghosts book about how they ARE NOT like WW1 armies

Regarding bringing a rebellious world into compliance or any other human world. I see most worlds being somewhat like medieval lords presiding over their peasants. The lord will change many times over while the peasants pay no heed as they do not care amd are too busy with life. Rebellion would be a aristocratic or a lordly, not"the people", move.

The guard come in, dispose the lord. The peasants pay no attention as it has happened hundreds of times before. Just disposing a lord and his army takes far less people than a full on the people rebellion.

Lord Tarkin wrote:[quote=Ashiraya 606802 7061770 09b50b4ece8adca6664aec0db9d63ba9.jpg
Yeah, like lieutenant Mira

Edit: or should I say....leftenant Mira

No, Lieutenant is the correct spelling even though we pronounce it funny. Always makes me think there should be Rightennants though. >>

Crimson wrote:Heve those low SoB numbers been referenced in a while? I think they've been silently retconned away.

You can't silently retcon something. A retcon requires a statement that counters the original data. :p

Mythantor wrote:I there even a mention of how many Major Orders there are?

C:AS defines the six Major Orders of the Orders Militant, but doesn't mention the Non-Militant orders much.

Swastakowey wrote:This never really used to be the case. When I read the older fluff in codices etc their militaries worked like ours. The only place I have heard of the PDF being less than the guard is on the web. In my old dex they have pictures of riot cavalry which are apart of regiments. Im fairly sure it talks about guard acting as pdf as well and pdf where only less experienced due to a lack of fighting. The guard that I have read about in personal letters etc throughout the fluff are just people that got recruited from their homes or conscripted and sent straight to a front with training on transit and gear on loading.

Its in several novels that PDFs are like the medieval Militia or the Army Reserve - they only train "in the evenings or at weekends to allow its members to work their civilian jobs."

Ashiraya wrote:No. Superhuman means above human limits. As they are consistently described as being of superhuman size, well, figure out the rest yourself.
?

Even today, seven feet tall is an outlier statistic, and there are noted to be humans that are as tall as Marines in some novels, who are also outliers - and, bear in mind, that with the terrible quality of diet in the 40k universe, humans are probably going to be shorter than they are today.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:[quote=Ashiraya 606802 7061770 09b50b4ece8adca6664aec0db9d63ba9.jpg
Yeah, like lieutenant Mira

Edit: or should I say....leftenant Mira

No, Lieutenant is the correct spelling even though we pronounce it funny. Always makes me think there should be Rightennants though. >>

Crimson wrote:Heve those low SoB numbers been referenced in a while? I think they've been silently retconned away.

You can't silently retcon something. A retcon requires a statement that counters the original data. :p

Mythantor wrote:I there even a mention of how many Major Orders there are?

C:AS defines the six Major Orders of the Orders Militant, but doesn't mention the Non-Militant orders much.

Swastakowey wrote:This never really used to be the case. When I read the older fluff in codices etc their militaries worked like ours. The only place I have heard of the PDF being less than the guard is on the web. In my old dex they have pictures of riot cavalry which are apart of regiments. Im fairly sure it talks about guard acting as pdf as well and pdf where only less experienced due to a lack of fighting. The guard that I have read about in personal letters etc throughout the fluff are just people that got recruited from their homes or conscripted and sent straight to a front with training on transit and gear on loading.

Its in several novels that PDFs are like the medieval Militia or the Army Reserve - they only train "in the evenings or at weekends to allow its members to work their civilian jobs."

Ashiraya wrote:No. Superhuman means above human limits. As they are consistently described as being of superhuman size, well, figure out the rest yourself.
?

Even today, seven feet tall is an outlier statistic, and there are noted to be humans that are as tall as Marines in some novels, who are also outliers - and, bear in mind, that with the terrible quality of diet in the 40k universe, humans are probably going to be shorter than they are today.

Ah, so then I'd be a rightenant.

 Ashiraya wrote:
No. Superhuman means above human limits. As they are consistently described as being of superhuman size, well, figure out the rest yourself.

Game mechanics are irrelevant, model scale is highly flawed as-is... Do you really think the human rhino would hold 10 Marines? FW says it is 5-6 meters IIRC, which must refer to a human rhino. Hell, drop pods are colossal (I'll link you the source for that in due time as said) and why eould Rhinos be much smaller?

even a few inches can, especially with mass seem absolutly mammoth. I mean Andre the giant was "only" 7 feet 4 inches tall

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
No. Superhuman means above human limits. As they are consistently described as being of superhuman size, well, figure out the rest yourself.

Game mechanics are irrelevant, model scale is highly flawed as-is... Do you really think the human rhino would hold 10 Marines? FW says it is 5-6 meters IIRC, which must refer to a human rhino. Hell, drop pods are colossal (I'll link you the source for that in due time as said) and why eould Rhinos be much smaller?

even a few inches can, especially with mass seem absolutly mammoth. I mean Andre the giant was "only" 7 feet 4 inches tall

And in Brotherhood of the Snakes, Priad was described as being 8 feet tall.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:[quote=Ashiraya 606802 7061770 09b50b4ece8adca6664aec0db9d63ba9.jpg
Yeah, like lieutenant Mira

Edit: or should I say....leftenant Mira

No, Lieutenant is the correct spelling even though we pronounce it funny. Always makes me think there should be Rightennants though. >>

Could do with a few David Tennants, too

I will hold on to my nine feet marines until the day I die.

As a comparison, I consider them more akin to mgalekgolo than sangheili. Of course Marines are rather different from both but I think you know what I mean.

Oh, one of the biggest scale fails that has always bugged me, are the Space Marine fleets. Whilst the exact sizes of these ships are debatable, they're nevertheless absolutely huge. Yet a ship over a kilometre long is used to haul a single squad of marines. Many Chapters also have several battle barges, each of which could easily carry all marines in existence.

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, one of the biggest scale fails that has always bugged me, are the Space Marine fleets. Whilst the exact sizes of these ships are debatable, they're nevertheless absolutely huge. Yet a ship over a kilometre long is used to haul a single squad of marines. Many Chapters also have several battle barges, each of which could easily carry all marines in existence.

There is the fact that each ship needs to be capable of space combat, hold the chapter armoury (some of), have a SM-designed med bay, drop craft, room for serfs/servitors, training rooms for the marines (as they need constant training with things like firearms, a killing house, sparring rooms, a gym etc), somewhere to repair their kit and so on.

Each space marine is purported to be worth many humans, but the maintenance for a marine is going to be astronomical.

 Selym wrote:

There is the fact that each ship needs to be capable of space combat, hold the chapter armoury (some of), have a SM-designed med bay, drop craft, room for serfs/servitors, training rooms for the marines (as they need constant training with things like firearms, a killing house, sparring rooms, a gym etc), somewhere to repair their kit and so on.

Each space marine is purported to be worth many humans, but the maintenance for a marine is going to be astronomical.

Yes, this is what someone always says when I bring it up, but it really doesn't add up. It is like saying that you can only carry four golf balls in a jumbojet because you also need to bring a set of golf clubs. The amount of volume just is ludicrous. A 1.5 km long Nova-class frigate has volume of about 50 times of Empire State Building. This ship is said to carry single squad of marines! 90% of it can be structures and engines, and you still got five Empire State Buildings worth of space for ten marines and their gear! That is a scale fail if I've ever seen one!

 Crimson wrote:

 Selym wrote:

There is the fact that each ship needs to be capable of space combat, hold the chapter armoury (some of), have a SM-designed med bay, drop craft, room for serfs/servitors, training rooms for the marines (as they need constant training with things like firearms, a killing house, sparring rooms, a gym etc), somewhere to repair their kit and so on.

Each space marine is purported to be worth many humans, but the maintenance for a marine is going to be astronomical.

Yes, this is what someone always says when I bring it up, but it really doesn't add up. It is like saying that you can only carry four golf balls in a jumbojet because you also need to bring a set of golf clubs. The amount of volume just is ludicrous. A 1.5 km long Nova-class frigate has volume of about 50 times of Empire State Building. This ship is said to carry single squad of marines! 90% of it can be structures and engines, and you still got five Empire State Buildings worth of space for ten marines and their gear! That is a scale fail if I've ever seen one!

I do see your point there, but where has it been stated that they only carry a single squad of marines?

 Selym wrote:

I do see your point there, but where has it been stated that they only carry a single squad of marines?

It is from BFG, though apparently it was Gladius-class, not Nova-class; same size though. In any case, the same issue exist with all Space Marine vessels; their volume is just absolutely insane. Granted, these ship sizes are only semi-official, as they come from FFG.