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DR you have never been able to prove that. It has been your view but you cannot provide a rule quote that says you can place them in impossible locations. I don't believe there was a FAQ that backed your stance either.

Gravmyr wrote:
DR you have never been able to prove that. It has been your view but you cannot provide a rule quote that says you can place them in impossible locations. I don't believe there was a FAQ that backed your stance either.

I proved it in 6th ed, you were allowed to move through DT with a DT test, this includes solid walls of a ruin or other difficult terrain.

The same still applies in 7th.

Still your interpretation which does not prove they can hover. It proves that you don't have to destroy your models to move through solid DT.

I never said models can hover.

You don't have to destroy your models to move through solid DT, but it also proves that being inside of a solid piece of DT is allowed in the rules.

Anything standing without support from below is hovering.

Gravmyr wrote:
Anything standing without support from below is hovering.

Yes, that is the definition of hover, what is your point?

 DeathReaper wrote:
and it can be stood on a level of a ruin if 0.000001 cm of its base can fit there. Then you invoke WMS.

A model with .000001 cm of it's base on a ruin is hovering. It does not have support under it.

Gravmyr is correct on wms.

The rules say it right there in black and white, you can climb as high as the dice take you but if you stand the model there it can't go there.

Gravmyr wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
and it can be stood on a level of a ruin if 0.000001 cm of its base can fit there. Then you invoke WMS.

A model with .000001 cm of it's base on a ruin is hovering. It does not have support under it.

No that is not hovering, hovering means it has nothing under it, clearly that model has something under it.

Let's not forget WMS is by agreement, if your opponent does not agree you must stand your model where it is. If your model doesn't balance there, or If your model falls, then it clearly did not finish the move where it could be stood.

Then I assume you would willing to stand on the Empire state building ledge with 1" under your feet? If not because you would fall then you are not supported.

Gravmyr wrote:
Then I assume you would willing to stand on the Empire state building ledge with 1" under your feet? If not because you would fall then you are not supported.

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.

in 6th you couldn't place a model on a ruin if it's base would not fit yet you said you could do it because WMS. My statement still stands there is not support under the model so you cannot claim it is there, it cannot stand it is not supported hence hovering.

Edit: Falling back on "physics doesn't work the same way" for the basics is just silly. I assume then I can place my models standing on the sides of buildings or taped to the ceiling or the underside of the gaming table. If we don't treat gravity as working then why is there a limit on range for projectiles, shouldn't they be infinitely long beams? There are basics we do in fact have to assume works on the planet, like gravity, otherwise there would be alternate rules for firing weapons like rocket launchers blasting the firer into space. What holds tanks or models down? Real world examples are valid to display when people are unwilling to see what they are stating. You are claiming that the smallest bit of terrain is enough to support the model and justify it's presence in a place where nothing is holding it up, the definition of support. If it cannot stand there it can't be there per moving up rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HOw is assuming models can hover, excuse me, be supported by the theory of a ledge a compromise? Between what two points is that a compromise?

I'm just gonna say HIWPI and say that if I roll high enough I succeed at the assault.

You can say I fail, and I'll move my models.

You can say I fail, and I'll roll my dice.

You can say I fail, and I'll alert you to how many dice you need to roll for your saves.

If you refuse, I'm afraid we don't have much of a game then. Point is, I don't think GW thought someone was going to be that much of a jerk, and it never occurred to them. I'm sure, if it ever happened during playtesting, that they just completed their charges and rolled dice, because it's a combat game, not a "who can game the system more" game.

And if you really want to refuse to roll some armor saves and quit, then I guess we can't play. No love lost.

It seems those debating this rule are either in the "yep it works" or "no it doesn't" camp based on principles of "let's play a game" vs "haha GOTCHA!!" and aren't likely to budge.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Upon the assault phase, you declare a charge on them.
As long as you Roll what you need, the initial charging model (regardless of the other guys) MUST be in base contact with its target..

It's not just about the distance, though. You need to be able to legally place the model in base contact.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to the situation (and opinions are somewhat divided on that, as shown in this thread) if the charge target is occupying the entire level there is no way to legally place the model in base contact.

I will quote the rules if i have remembered them correctly. But the "move initial charger" paragraph tells you to put him in base contact, what rule denies you this? (Quotes here would help)

Ultimately, yes WMS will come in when the situation of "In B2B but can't fit him" comes up, but before that, there is explicit wording forcing him to be in B2B.

ED: Once i get my book

"MOVING THROUGH TERRAIN
As part of their move, models can move through, up or over any terrain they encounter,
unless the terrain is noted as being impassable.
Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish
the move on a location where it can be stood."

And the problem is that in the instance of a floor full of enemy models, there is physically no place to stand the model and any other charging models.

WMS doesn't apply because WMS is for models that are difficult to place not impossible.

I see you have quoted "Moving through terrain". But we are discussing Charges, not moving.

What you quoted stops you from putting models on those trees, per you pretty picture, but it does nothing to stop charging models being placed. Can you find the same wording in the "Charging through terrain"? because i can't see it....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
I'm just gonna say HIWPI and say that if I roll high enough I succeed at the assault.

You can say I fail, and I'll move my models.

You can say I fail, and I'll roll my dice.

You can say I fail, and I'll alert you to how many dice you need to roll for your saves.

If you refuse, I'm afraid we don't have much of a game then. Point is, I don't think GW thought someone was going to be that much of a jerk, and it never occurred to them. I'm sure, if it ever happened during playtesting, that they just completed their charges and rolled dice, because it's a combat game, not a "who can game the system more" game.

And if you really want to refuse to roll some armor saves and quit, then I guess we can't play. No love lost.

It seems those debating this rule are either in the "yep it works" or "no it doesn't" camp based on principles of "let's play a game" vs "haha GOTCHA!!" and aren't likely to budge.

I agree with this, but by RaW: rules tell you that if you succeed in your charge distance, you are in base contact. When in base contact, you can roll to hit and the rest. I need the other side to show me what rule says i am "no longer in base contact", because there is no support for that position.
Whether you play acrobats with your models or not...

I see you have quoted "Moving through terrain". But we are discussing Charges, not moving.

What you quoted stops you from putting models on those trees, per you pretty picture, but it does nothing to stop charging models being placed. Can you find the same wording in the "Charging through terrain"? because i can't see it....

How about "All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move - up to the 2d6 distance you rolled earlier- following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models.

RAW: You need to get a model into base contact per moving initial charger section. There is no longer a rule that gives you permission to say you are in base contact when you are not.

HIWPI: Our group is playing as if the rule still exists due to TFG playmanship not being welcomed. Like loading up a ledge and saying charges are impossible.


As an aside seeing you charged through difficult terrain wouldn't you need to attack at initiative 1.

Gravmyr has it.



And yeah, guys, I'm merely pointing out they should probably put that rule back as it's pretty important.

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route. Roll for dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a Dangerous Terrain test, choose a new initial charger and try again.

Initial charger must move into contact or you break this rule.

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:
• If a charging model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2" horizontally or 6" vertically of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base contact with an enemy. If this is impossible, it must simply stay in unit coherency.

The other models might "cannot reach" because as you say, there is no space for them. But that is "the others". You still cannot break the first rule about the initial charger.

following the same rules as in the Movement phase

Of course, we are following all the standard rules for the movement phase. Where does it say i can't be in base contact?
Or are you referring to "Moving through Difficult terrain? because that is irrelevant.
You need this one:

Charging Through Difficult Terrain
Models are slowed when charging through difficult terrain. If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range. Normally, this means that if a unit rolls a double 1 and they are charging through difficult terrain, it will automatically be a failed charge.
Warriors who charge through difficult terrain are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire and must advance more cautiously. To represent this, if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Remember that charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible.

Where does it say i need to "as long as the model is able to finish the move on a location where it can be stood."?

Can't see it?

All I can see here now is that Bikes can climb ruins now.

GONNA DRIVE STRAIGHT UP THAT WALL TO GET TO THE ENEMY NOW!

Dreadnoughts climbing up the sides of shakey, ruined buildings!

I think it works with the current rules, you just need to make space for the initial charger (or "float" him somewhere)

 BlackTalos wrote:
I think it works with the current rules, you just need to make space for the initial charger (or "float" him somewhere)

You have no rules permission to float the model. You also have no rules permission to move models from the unit you are charging to "make space".

If no models in the unit can be placed in base contact with an enemy model then the charge fails/was illegal.

@BlackTalos: I'm not sure you understand how a permissive ruleset works. Sine you use all the rules from the movement section you still need to follow them even if there is another section concerning the same thing unless you have a rule that says you only use the new/different rules or that it replaces it. It doesn't matter that there is a section about charging through difficult terrain that does not mention being able to stand as the basic rules state you have to do so.

Yeah....nah. In a game where motorcycles can fly up to top levels of ruins and dreadnoughts without hands can climb walls as easily as a genestealer, I'm not going to have someone tell me I can't make a charge against his guys because they're standing on the edge unless a T.O. tells me he wants his tourney run that way.

Hence why I believe most people will continue to use the 6th edition rules for ruins till GW clears some stuff up.

Don't we have scenarios where you can't get into btb with units, but assault them anyway? Like when you charge a building and attack the people inside or on the battlements, or when charging troops behind an aegis defense line you measure to the line, not to the models, and place your model on the opposite side of the wall but attack anyway?

I suppose the die-hard RAW folks will say "well those give specific permission" but can't we just say it's the SAME EXACT thing?

Failing that take a bunch of blast weapons. They want to bunch up on that one level, be my guest....

Granted, also, killing a single model with any sort of shooting attack should also make space for you.

Blockades and walls are the only ones with an exception given to not be in btb if and only if enemy models are against the line.

Yeah, it is for the "Die hard RaW players" lol

But those same players have a rule that says: "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route."

They would be breaking the rule if the initial charger somehow "isn't in base contact". If you roll above the distance needed, there is no such thing as a "can't make that charge". It's not in the rules...

I like how in WHFB it pretty much says "do what it takes to make sure the units make it into combat and line up. If it's just not possible in any way, THEN the charge fails.

Unfortunately, that wording does not exist in 40k. If it did, this discussion would not exist =P

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't anyway. Oh well.

In the famous words of the T.O. of the Big Waaaagh in Memphis, TN:

"There's two ways to interpret that rule. One of them is gonna get your ass beat."