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Specifically, I'm asking about a Cadre Fireblade attached to a unit of Pathfinders in Reserve, possibly Outflanking, or a Cadre Fireblade attached to a unit of Fire Warriors in Reserve.

The Volley Fire rule of a Cadre Fireblade stipulates the restriction that the every model in the unit "remains stationary in the Movement phase" in order to get an extra attack with Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.

The rulebook states that Reserve rolls occur and Reserves arrive at the start of your turn. When Reserves arrive, they can move up to six inches from the table edge. Following all Reserve movement, "the player can then proceed to move his other units as normal."

The crux of the question is this: Is the unit arriving from Reserves moving during the start of your turn or the movement phase? Or to put it differently, does the unit gain the benefit of Volley Fire on the turn it arrives from Reserves or not?

I think you determine who is allowed to arrive from Reserves at the Start of Turn, but the actual arrival happens in the Movement Phase, before other units are permitted to move. Granted, it's not explicit, but that's my take on it.

you are unquestionably moving when you come on from reserves.

In previous editions Start of the Turn and Start of the Movement Phase was interchangeable, as the Movement Phase was the first phase of a turn so both occurred at the same point in the timeline.
I will review 7th to confirm if the Authors changed this, as I keep having an inkling they did...

Yes, start of the turn is now a separate step from the Movement phase in the turn summary. Specifically 'The Start and End of a Turn' section clarifies that actions or events that happen at the start of the turn "... are always resolved before your Movement phase."

Yay, memory problems are not causing issues tonight!
Still curious if they make 'Start of Turn' into a full Phase or if they just make it so we resolve one before we resolve the other but if the Phase could still be Movement.

Start of Turn definitely seems to be distinct from the Movement Phase. Reserves say to determine who is coming in in SoT, but then goes on to say to move them onto the board before other units move, which I've taken to mean that this is happening in the Movement phase. Different interpretations are possible I think.

I was honestly not sure whether moving on from reserve occurs in 1. The start of your turn or 2. Movement phase when I began this thread. Common sense would dictate that models move during the movement phase, but after reading and re-reading the rules tonight, I'm becoming more convinced that units form Reserve arrive and move during the start of your turn. In particular, the following entries are leading me to this conclusion:

Page 135, the end of the second paragraph on Arriving From Reserve: "If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
Page 136, the second sentence on Ongoing Reserves: "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of the controlling player's following turn..."

These two passages seem to indicate that units arrive from Reserve in 1. The start of your turn. Furthermore:

Page 135, in the fourth paragraph on Arriving From Reserve: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on..."
Page 136, first sentence of Moving On From Reserve: "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table..."

Taken together, this seems to place the movement of arriving Reserves in 1. The start of your turn, as well. Since it goes Unit A arrives, Unit A moves, Unit B arrives, Unit B moves, Unit C arrives, etc.

I'd be interested in hearing opposing viewpoints, though.

Snapshot wrote:
Start of Turn definitely seems to be distinct from the Movement Phase. Reserves say to determine who is coming in in SoT, but then goes on to say to move them onto the board before other units move, which I've taken to mean that this is happening in the Movement phase. Different interpretations are possible I think.

Just because it's movement doesn't automatically mean that it occurs in the Movement phase. Since you roll for and move one unit on from reserve before you roll for the next unit in reserve you would be bouncing back and forth between the start of the turn and the Movement phase.

 Ghaz wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
Start of Turn definitely seems to be distinct from the Movement Phase. Reserves say to determine who is coming in in SoT, but then goes on to say to move them onto the board before other units move, which I've taken to mean that this is happening in the Movement phase. Different interpretations are possible I think.

Just because it's movement doesn't automatically mean that it occurs in the Movement phase. Since you roll for and move one unit on from reserve before you roll for the next unit in reserve you would be bouncing back and forth between the start of the turn and the Movement phase.

Except that's not how p135 says to do it. At Start of Turn, rolls to see which units in Reserve are arriving this turn. Further down it says to pick one of your arriving units, deploy, pick another one, etc, and then move other units normally. This does seem to imply that the moving part is happening in the Movement phase, but YMMV.

Snapshot wrote:
Except that's not how p135 says to do it. At Start of Turn, rolls to see which units in Reserve are arriving this turn. Further down it says to pick one of your arriving units, deploy, pick another one, etc, and then move other units normally. This does seem to imply that the moving part is happening in the Movement phase, but YMMV.

That implies no such thing. All that indicates is that reserves must move before any other units. It does not imply one way or the other what 'phase' of the game that occurs in. Once again 'The Start and End of a Turn' section clarifies that actions or events that happen at the start of the turn "... are always resolved before your Movement phase." You're trying to spread the action between the start of the turn and the Movement phase when the rules clearly say otherwise. Reserves are an event that occur at the start of the turn and "... are always resolved before your Movement phase".

I agree that Start of Turn happens before Movement. Determining which units arrive from Reserves definitely happens in Start of Turn. When they actually move on the board is a little more vague, and I reckon you could argue one or the other, but my money's on the Movement Phase. As I said, YMMV.

No, it's not vague for the rules I've already posted. You're trying to divide the action of Reserves into the start of the turn and the Movement phase. Nothing implies in the least that the movement of reserves occurs in the Movement phase, just that they must be moved before you move any other units and the start of the turn qualifies for that and doesn't break any rules. Claiming that they move in the Movement phase does break the rule I've already posted.

There are 2 distinct actions happening with reserves. First, determine who is arriving this turn - the rules for this do not say what phase they arrive. Second, move arriving units (in whatever order you like) prior to moving other units. It is clear that rolling to see who arrives this turn is done at Start of Turn. Deploying these units may or may not occur during Start of Turn, or Movement. Argue it either way - both could be right.

If you're rolling for a unit, moving it on, rolling for a unit, moving it on...I think you're doing it wrong.

And again, nothing says that moving those units occur in the Movement phase. Reserves is an action(s) or event(s) that occurs at the start of the turn. Trying to split it into two separate actions still doesn't let you break the rules in 'The Start and End of a Turn' section. All of these actions and events "... are always resolved before your Movement phase."

So no, you're scenario breaks the rules I've quoted numerous times. Please provide an actual rules passage to support your position other than your opinion and "YMMV'.

Snapshot wrote:
There are 2 distinct actions happening with reserves. First, determine who is arriving this turn - the rules for this do not say what phase they arrive. Second, move arriving units (in whatever order you like) prior to moving other units. It is clear that rolling to see who arrives this turn is done at Start of Turn. Deploying these units may or may not occur during Start of Turn, or Movement. Argue it either way - both could be right.

If you're rolling for a unit, moving it on, rolling for a unit, moving it on...I think you're doing it wrong.

I quoted two passages from the rules that explicitly refer to reserves arriving at the start of the player's turn. Page 135, last sentence of second paragraph under Arriving From Reserve and page 136, second sentence under Ongoing Reserves. Look back a few posts if you want to read the exact text and don't have your rules handy.

Ghaz, you are missing his point.

He *knows* the rule does not say they arrive during the movement phase. And he has *never claimed that*.

His point (and I concur) is that the rules explicitly state that you "roll for reserves" at the beginning of the turn.

The rules then state that those units arrive "that turn"

The rules do *not* state that they arrive during the 'beginning of the turn.' They also do not state they arrive during the movement phase.... the rules are not explicit in this.

OTOH, they are explicit that they arrive before anything else can move. Which is an extremely unnecessary if your assertion is correct. *IF* they arrive at the BoT, then it would already be impossible for any other unit to move before them anyway....

Yet they state that restriction at least twice.... which *only* makes sense if the arrival occurs during the movement phase.

coredump wrote:
Ghaz, you are missing his point.

He *knows* the rule does not say they arrive during the movement phase. And he has *never claimed that*.

His point (and I concur) is that the rules explicitly state that you "roll for reserves" at the beginning of the turn.

The rules then state that those units arrive "that turn"

The rules do *not* state that they arrive during the 'beginning of the turn.' They also do not state they arrive during the movement phase.... the rules are not explicit in this.

The beginning of the turn is still a part of the turn. Having them arrive at the beginning of the turn does not break any rules, whereas having them arrive during the Movement phase does.

coredump wrote:
OTOH, they are explicit that they arrive before anything else can move. Which is an extremely unnecessary if your assertion is correct. *IF* they arrive at the BoT, then it would already be impossible for any other unit to move before them anyway....

Yet they state that restriction at least twice.... which *only* makes sense if the arrival occurs during the movement phase.

And it makes sense to roll during the start of the turn and then resolve everything else for Reserves during the Movement phase? No, it doesn't. Why not just roll in the Movement phase when the reserves would arrive? GW has been known to post pointless 'reminders' in the rules before, or we could be looking at a simple cut and paste from the 6th edition rules which are worded nearly identically. The RAW is clear. Units arriving from reserve move on at the start of the turn nad not in the Movement phase. Please provide actual rules to support any arguments otherwise other than just opinions.

coredump wrote:
The rules then state that those units arrive "that turn"

The rules do *not* state that they arrive during the 'beginning of the turn.' They also do not state they arrive during the movement phase.... the rules are not explicit in this.

Don't these two quotes indicate that reserves arrive at the "start of your turn"?

Page 135, the end of the second paragraph on Arriving From Reserve: "If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
Page 136, the second sentence on Ongoing Reserves: "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of the controlling player's following turn..."

Or am I misinterpreting this?

You can't use volley fire the turn you MOVE on from reserves. You have not remained stationary. Period.

Lungpickle wrote:
You can't use volley fire the turn you MOVE on from reserves. You have not remained stationary. Period.

Is that what the rule says? Because that's not how the OP quoted it.

You do this often - come into a thread and make assertions that aren't actually what the rule says, just what you think the rule says.

If a unit moves on from reserves, would it be able to fire heavy weapons without snap shoting?

the unit is not stationary.

blaktoof wrote:
If a unit moves on from reserves, would it be able to fire heavy weapons without snap shoting?

the unit is not stationary.

That's not what the rule says however. The Heavy rules are similarly worded:

If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots.

Did the model move in the preceding Movement phase? Or did it move before the preceding Movement phase?

40k rules, iBook pg. 506

"If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked."

Interpreting a move from reserves as not occurring during the Movement phase means every Flyer crashes immediately. It's a ridiculous result. The movement should count as occurring during the Movement phase to keep the game from imploding, though I'm sure some will say it has.

Then that's a problem with the Flyer rules. As it is, the rules for Reserves are clear that their movement occurs at the start of the turn and not the Movement phase.

 Ghaz wrote:
Then that's a problem with the Flyer rules. As it is, the rules for Reserves are clear that their movement occurs at the start of the turn and not the Movement phase.

So your suggestion is to interpret one rule to cause every Flyer to immediately become Wrecked as soon as they enter the table instead of preventing a Tau model from allowing his guys to shoot one more time? And the rules are not clear, otherwise the OP wouldn't have posed the question.

Not only that,

"Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase." pg 383, iBook rules.

Where are the rules for distance moved in the Reserves (Start of Turn) phase?

And your suggestion is that what is clearly worded can't be the case because it causes a problem? Sorry, but that's not true. Words don't change their meaning just because it causes problems elsewhere, all it does is show GW's continued sloppy writing.

I'm sorry but your missing out on some important stuff with your "RAW".

if arriving from reserves move happens before movement, then how do you move?

no model has a movement distance it is allowed to move up to for a phase before the movement phase.

there are movement distances for movement phase, there's fallback distance from shooting phase, theres movement distance for assault phase...but nothing for before movement phase. No model has a listed movement outside of those areas.


can you show me RAW where it says how far any model moves before the movement phase?

So if coming on from reserves is not happening in the movement phase RAW models move onto the board either 0" or 6" regardless of their type or other rules with that logic.

Moving onto the table from reserves does not happen BEFORE the movement phase. It happens first thing during the movement phase.


The models are moving onto the table. Only the reserve roll to see if they come on happens before the actual move phase.


You cannot interpret it any other way without breaking alot of other rules. In such a case, it is not worth arguing, even hypothetically.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Moving onto the table from reserves does not happen BEFORE the movement phase. It happens first thing during the movement phase.


The models are moving onto the table. Only the reserve roll to see if they come on happens before the actual move phase.

Except that moving on and rolling are simultaneous...