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That's very much in line with GWs policies. Do you have any idea of whether locals will be getting involved in that?

It's shenanigans like that that make me happy for never having set foot in a GW store.

 Yonan wrote:
That's very much in line with GWs policies. Do you have any idea of whether locals will be getting involved in that?

It's shenanigans like that that make me happy for never having set foot in a GW store.

No one has replied to the facebook invite yet. I suppose you could just lie about never having played your army.

 Random Dude wrote:
So today my local GW store announced an escalation league. I thought it would be great. You know what the catch is? You HAVE TO start an entirely new army you've never played before. YOU MUST BUY MORE MODELS. How ridiculous is that?

For something run by a club, it would be a little over the top unless the players were all cashed up and keen to give it a go.

For something run by a store, where running in-store events is essentially a tool for promoting sales, it sounds like a great idea, to be honest.

If GWs prices were more in line with say Mantics, you could consider doing this as a similar format to what is it... a sealed deck something or another as done with magic the gathering? But as with the army you priced up today... you can't just do that sort of thing willy nilly in 40k.

500 points worth of 40k using Mantic models would set you back what, $50-$100. Still pretty damn steep compared to a what, $15 magic starter deck but it's within the range of acceptable, especially if there was an extra discount given. Win for the store, win for the player. But GW prices at 1500+ points level... you just can't justify it I don't think.

See, this would be a lot of fun, if the game where a heck of a lot cheaper.

Imagine building up armies over a set amount of time AT THE SAME TIME as everyone else in your group. Your armies will be painted while everyone else paints them and people can develop armies together (potentially solving some imbalances) and so on.

It would be a great opportunity. Just not with GW products. They are expensive for 1. And personally I dont like a lot of their models etc.

In theory its a great idea though. Just not with GW.

This works for the skirmish games, but I have seen too many "slow grow" leagues fail for 40k because of the cost. You either stretch it out for 6 months, by then folks have lost interest, or do it in 6 weeks, but people are either broke or never invested in the first place.

It also doesn't help that the game is pretty abysmal at the sub-1000 point level without significant house ruling. The points efficiency of certain units just becomes astronomical and the troops tax for some armies just hinders them further.

 TheKbob wrote:
This works for the skirmish games, but I have seen too many "slow grow" leagues fail for 40k because of the cost. You either stretch it out for 6 months, by then folks have lost interest, or do it in 6 weeks, but people are either broke or never invested in the first place.

It also doesn't help that the game is pretty abysmal at the sub-1000 point level without significant house ruling. The points efficiency of certain units just becomes astronomical and the troops tax for some armies just hinders them further.

To me, games under 1500 points just aren't fun at all.

This sort of thing is possible with Mantic minis, at least at the discounted and kickstarter prices. I started 6 large armies with the deadzone kickstarter, getting something like 300 minis and boatloads of terrain to go with it. All because the prices made it doable. Other companies such as dreamforge whilst not having a ruleset of their own, could allow a decent sized army for a not too extortionate price.

Mantic KoW and Warpath army bundles are good value, with something like the 50 model Basilean army for £49.99 or the elven army of 140 models for £100 with no discounts being a perfect way to do something like this. If Mantic ran something like this and gave a 20% discount on the armies it would be a huge win-win. I guess in 40k you could do similar with the army bundles, but they're still substantially more expensive.

 Random Dude wrote:
To me, games under 1500 points just aren't fun at all.

To each their own of course, but I find large games fun for their scale and small games fun for their speed, though as I've said in other threads other game systems like Dreadball, Deadzone etc. get the small games done better.

Random Dude wrote:

To me, games under 1500 points just aren't fun at all.

I agree, I like bigger games, but reasonable ones. Past 2,500 is reserved only for like minded gamers who know the rules front to back. If I know I'm playing a game that can still get done within 3 hours with my opponent, we can go big.

Yonan wrote:
To each their own of course, but I find large games fun for their scale and small games fun for their speed, though as I've said in other threads other game systems like Dreadball, Deadzone etc. get the small games done better.

Warhammer 40k is supremely busted at lower than 1500. Most of the rumor, word of mouth mill says that's the points level the game is generally targeted for. That said, I play me some Infinity and my 20 man army is "the horde".

 insaniak wrote:
For something run by a store, where running in-store events is essentially a tool for promoting sales, it sounds like a great idea, to be honest.

IMO even for a store it's just too far on the side of "BUY NOW BUY BUY BUY". An escalation league marketed as an opportunity to start that new army you've been thinking about still generates sales, while adding a rule that you have to buy everything new may or may not add any additional sales. From my perspective it would be an awful idea, I don't have any real interest in starting a new army and even if I did there's no way I can build and paint the models fast enough to play them. So I'd be spending hundreds of dollars on stuff I'd have to quickly throw together and then put on ebay because the models are ruined for future use. And I suspect there are a lot of other people in similar situations. If an escalation league requires new purchases we aren't going to be persuaded to buy stuff, the league is just going to have fewer players.

 Random Dude wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Twenty men in infinity?

Jesus that's a lot, what points level do you play? Most of my lists at 300 points come out at 8-10 models.

Speaking of Infinity, I've been thinking about getting into it. Is it good?

Yep, but I suggest we stay on target, or we'll get this locked. Unless there's nothing else more to be said. We probably have enough threads about GW complaints, maybe?

Slow growing in the same army should be allowed, but just make it so you have to buy a box every month? And they have to hit the table in a list that grows until the end? So you could just replace old tactical marines with new ones or maybe get to finally buying that Stalker. Seems like it could be done better.

 TheKbob wrote:

Yonan wrote:To each their own of course, but I find large games fun for their scale and small games fun for their speed, though as I've said in other threads other game systems like Dreadball, Deadzone etc. get the small games done better.

Warhammer 40k is supremely busted at lower than 1500. Most of the rumor, word of mouth mill says that's the points level the game is generally targeted for. That said, I play me some Infinity and my 20 man army is "the horde".

Yeah as with most things 40k, you need to bash the lists out together for a chance of a fun game which is doable among mates but that's about it. If you try it in a random game you get your foot IG against 3 land raiders ; p

 Random Dude wrote:
So today my local GW store announced an escalation league. I thought it would be great. You know what the catch is? You HAVE TO start an entirely new army you've never played before. YOU MUST BUY MORE MODELS. How ridiculous is that?

Very ridiculous.

Why don't people just abuse the RAW and swap armies? It's armies they have never played before.

Stop hating on GW, Random Dude!

Nah, I'm just kidding, I think it's completely fair that you bring it up. GW managers are in a bit of a pickle where they don't have much autonomy or way to generate additional revenue beyond what typical customers they receive. They basically have to get lucky and have a store in a location that provides a large number of customers, although I wouldn't be surprised if GW accounted for this and increased his sales quota even higher!

It's just not a job I would really enjoy...

 Accolade wrote:
Stop hating on GW, Random Dude!

Nah, I'm just kidding, I think it's completely fair that you bring it up. GW managers are in a bit of a pickle where they don't have much autonomy or way to generate additional revenue beyond what typical customers they receive. They basically have to get lucky and have a store in a location that provides a large number of customers, although I wouldn't be surprised if GW accounted for this and increased his sales quota even higher!

It's just not a job I would really enjoy...

Yeah, my local GW is on it's 3rd manager in 1 1/2 years.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
So today my local GW store announced an escalation league. I thought it would be great. You know what the catch is? You HAVE TO start an entirely new army you've never played before. YOU MUST BUY MORE MODELS. How ridiculous is that?

Very ridiculous.

Why don't people just abuse the RAW and swap armies? It's armies they have never played before.

But that's not RAI. But HIWPI? Hmmm....

Pick the Death Korps of Krieg for your army. Go big or go home

 Random Dude wrote:


Yeah, my local GW is on it's 3rd manager in 1 1/2 years.

Oooouufff, that's rough.

 Accolade wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:


Yeah, my local GW is on it's 3rd manager in 1 1/2 years.

Oooouufff, that's rough.

The first two were really nice guys, but they said they weren't making enough money. I haven't met the current manager yet.

Peregrine wrote: If an escalation league requires new purchases we aren't going to be persuaded to buy stuff, the league is just going to have fewer players.

Well, yes, an event like this would tend to appeal to a fairly limited range of customers by its very nature. That doesn't make it inherently a bad idea, just a sales tool that would have to be used judiciously and aimed at the right group of people.

I can remember a time not so many years ago (before wives and childrens and 6th edition and such happened) when I could have definitely been persuaded to take part in something like this, particularly of the store offered some sort of price break along the way.

 insaniak wrote:

Peregrine wrote: If an escalation league requires new purchases we aren't going to be persuaded to buy stuff, the league is just going to have fewer players.

Well, yes, an event like this would tend to appeal to a fairly limited range of customers by its very nature. That doesn't make it inherently a bad idea, just a sales tool that would have to be used judiciously and aimed at the right group of people.

I can remember a time not so many years ago (before wives and childrens and 6th edition and such happened) when I could have definitely been persuaded to take part in something like this, particularly of the store offered some sort of price break along the way.

Luckily for me, I'm starting a new army project. Since I'm already going to be buying new models, I might as well join. It starts at 500 points which is kinda a bummer. What can I fit, a captain and 1 tac squad?

My local GW is doing an escalation league right now. You don't have to have a new army, you just get 1 bonus point per game for a new army. If you have an old army, it must be painted and based. That way, people who want to start a new army spend money on models. People who want to play their old army have a reason to buy paint and basing materials. The store makes money either way and everyone gets to play. I doubt a league where everyone is forced to buy a whole new army will have much of a turnout.

I don't see it as an outrage. That's kind of the point. It gets people to start armies, build them, and paint them, and play a bunch of games. I have literally zero problem with it and don't think it's sneaky or weird. The only reason I wouldn't take part in something like that is because I don't need to start another army right now.

Also, check your codex. In 500 points you can fit 2 tac squads and a captain really easily.

1 captain, 2 tac squads and a 3 man bike squad is about 480 points. That's $150 for a a 500 point 24 model army. 24 enforcers would set you back $68 from Mantic, 20 Valkir would set you back $30 (iirc) from DFG. All without discounts, and you get non-GW stuff on much bigger discounts. The comparison to other ranges is relevant because it illustrates how much more doable something like this is for non-gw pricing schemes.

Magic can do it because sealed deck tournaments set you back what, $15-25 which most hobbyists can afford easily. Those cards will be just as useful to you afterwards whereas as Peregrine mentioned, assembling these for play interferes with partial assembly painting or must be done substantially in advance to give people time to do it.

It's not a *bad* idea, it just has cost and effort constraints. It should also offer incentive for the players doing it such as a higher than normal discount - that way it's win-win. The shop sells more models, has players starting up more armies which will bring in more future sales. The players start a cheaper army and play in a hopefully fun tournament.

 insaniak wrote:
Well, yes, an event like this would tend to appeal to a fairly limited range of customers by its very nature. That doesn't make it inherently a bad idea, just a sales tool that would have to be used judiciously and aimed at the right group of people.

I don't know, between the cost and the potential to ruin models I can't imagine this is going to have very many customers. And having enough people is really necessary for something like this to work, so that you can consistently get games every week until the league ends. It seems to me that a store would be better off getting as many players as possible to keep the league going, even if not all of them buy new stuff, than being absolutely sure that the handful of new players all bought a box of space marines before they were allowed to play.

I can remember a time not so many years ago (before wives and childrens and 6th edition and such happened) when I could have definitely been persuaded to take part in something like this, particularly of the store offered some sort of price break along the way.

Did you paint your models back then? Because that's the part that I don't understand, even if you can afford to start a new army how is anyone supposed to build and paint the models adequately in so little time? Or do people just rush the assembly and hope someone will buy them on ebay without looking too closely at the condition (or just toss them in the garbage) when they're done?

 Random Dude wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:


Yeah, my local GW is on it's 3rd manager in 1 1/2 years.

Oooouufff, that's rough.

The first two were really nice guys, but they said they weren't making enough money. I haven't met the current manager yet.

So the two former managers were fired?
Didn't know that the stores are evaluated in this way.

You base coat them and paint stuff like guns, then when you have time you go back and add the details and highlights. I did this with a couple squads just to get them painted quickly and they look fine now.

Toofast wrote:
You base coat them and paint stuff like guns, then when you have time you go back and add the details and highlights. I did this with a couple squads just to get them painted quickly and they look fine now.

Painting doesn't always work like that. For example, if you glue the gun arm onto the model you often block the chest and can no longer paint it properly. So either you glue it immediately and accept that you ruined the model to get it on the table faster, or you have a bunch of armless models every week. Or even things like mold lines become a problem, just cleaning up a model and preparing it for painting can take hours of work, so the only way to get that squad ready for a typical escalation league is to ignore all of that and hope that you can strip the paint and tear the models apart for proper assembly and painting once the league is over. And of course for vehicles or other large models it's even worse. I'll often spend a week or two working on a tank and I won't finish assembling it until the last 15 minutes or so, and having to glue everything together earlier would be a major inconvenience.

 insaniak wrote:
For something run by a store, where running in-store events is essentially a tool for promoting sales, it sounds like a great idea, to be honest.

Really? It sounds like a terrible idea to me. You immediately are only going to have a tiny group of people who get in to it because of the cost of starting a new army, so your tournament is going to be tiny. Not a great start when only a few people show up to your games night.

Assuming it's a game every week or two, after a few weeks when people realise they can't paint an army that fast most of them drop out and the thing fizzles with a bunch of disenchanted customers.

If the tournament is spread out over a longer time where people have the time and money to invest in building their army, then you have the problem people get bored and/or forget about it.

It might boost sales marginally, but I really only think marginally. You won't get too many people spending money they wouldn't have spent anyway (you might just shift what they spent it on).