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Is the -6 for attacking a TO Camo model as well as or instead of the -3 provided by the previous level of CH (mimetism) making a -9 to shoot them in total? It looks like it reads to be as well as, making it pretty strong.

Huh, I never thought of it like that, but as far as I can see now I'm looking at it there's nothing stopping you. The infinity rulebook says:

"In those Special Skills that have a number of levels, superior levels always include the inferior unless stated otherwise. For example, a Level 3 Skill will include the Level 1 and 2 abilities as well."

And the Wiki on Camo and hiding says:

"Is Concealment and Hiding (CH) a leveled Special Skill?

Yes, CH is a leveled Special Skill. Level 1 is Mimetism, Level 2 is Camouflage and Level 3 is Thermo-Optical Camouflage, a model can choose to use a lesser level of Camouflage if it so chooses, but may revert to its normal level once revealed. CH: Limited Camouflage is not considered to be part of this leveled Special Skill."

So by this interpretation anybody shooting (but not taking any other offensive action against) a figure with Camo gets an additional -3 due to the benefits of lvl 1 of that skill.

I don't think this is RAI but as far as i can tell it is actually RAW, even though I never thought about it before. Anybody else have anything to say?

Allows the miniature the same Defensive Camouflage that CH: Camouflage provides, but a negative Modifier of –6 is applied if someone intends to act against him.

From the wiki, with emphasis added.
In this case, TO camo includes camo, but the modifier is explicitly replaced in the definition of TO camo. It does not stack.

What you can do, instead, is deploy a TO camo model as a regular camo marker, which can be useful to disguise a model.

You can deploy a model with TO camo as a model, where it has a -6 to be shot at.
You can deploy it as a CAMO marker, where it has a -3 to discover penalty, but once revealed, REVERTS to the -6 BS penalty for shooting at it.
You can deploy it as a TO camo maker, in which case it has the -6 to discover penalty - but otherwise, once discovered, retains the -6 BS penalty.

Or you can deploy it "hidden" (no marker or model on the board). It won't generate an order whilst hidden, but it can't be discovered OR shot at directly (but CAN be hit as the result of "splash" damage from Direct template OR template attacks).

I believe with the logic in OP you'd also add Mimetism for -12 =/

No - mimetism and camo penalties DO NOT stack with TO camo.

-6 is the best you will get for shooting at TO camo UNLESS it's in cover, when it will be -9 (and weapon range modifiers will stack with this, too - so a combi-rifle at extreme range (>24" will be at -15 to-hit.

Ok, it was just the wording for Mimetism and the TO penalty was different (Mimetism says 'shooting attacks against', while TO says 'any action against').

If you deploy as a TO Camo marker (rather than Hidden Deployment), does it provide an order like a normal Camo marker?

Yes. it does.

Markers will allow the camo'd unit to add its order to the reserve.

You can still stack up to 3 units UNDER that marker, too. So one marker could be 3 orders (which will be given away IF you move it, as you will have to spend 1 order PER unit under it).

Woah... the more you know, people always talk about to/camo losing your orders, but it's only if you use this totally hidden deployment, and not just regular to/camo markers huh? That makes bringing more than one zero/prowler along more useful to me by far.

Yes.
That being said, hidden deployment is usually worth it, especially since the model does not really lose its order.
It does not add its order to the order pool, but its first action is free.

Yeah... hrm, all of the subtlety and nuance is what i (in theory) love about this game.

-9 to hit?!!? Bloody hell, do you want TO guys to be practically invulnerable?!

Yes camo markers still generate orders, only things which are not on the table (hidden deployment TO, Airborne infiltration etc.) do not add to the order pool.

For me, one of the great strengths of TO is the hidden deployment and I think it should be used where possible. If nothing else it's a massive psychological advantage when your opponent is crapping themselves about when and where the unit is suddenly going to appear.

Your opponent is not supposed to know you have TO units in hidden deployment
He can think you have, but he can't be sure until they show up (just like paratroopers)

Yup. Playing PanO, I've done the TO hidden camo shenanigans and had my players wondering where the hell the remaining aprox 120pts were (300pt games).

Cutter? (117pts hidden)
Swiss guard+croc man sniper (117pts)
Hexa spitfire, crocman minelayer, 2 TO order sgts 120ish pts.

And then there was the hidden camo and AD troops list (with 6 troops on the table). Not always effective, but worth it for the "WTF?" moments.

Ignore this. It's totally wrong.

Except it doesn't work like that
He moves his models for his first short skill
You declare an ARO (in this case revealing your model, which doesn't grant you combat camo in an ARO)
Then as his second short skill, as long as the link leader was in LOF at any point of his "move" short skill, he can shoot you while he was moving

You don't "stop" the movement, you declare ARO once the first short skill has been fully completed and you then resolve it after the second short skill has been declared and is being accomplished

 TanKoL wrote:
Except it doesn't work like that
He moves his models for his first short skill
You declare an ARO (in this case revealing your model, which doesn't grant you combat camo in an ARO)
Then as his second short skill, as long as the link leader was in LOF at any point of his "move" short skill, he can shoot you while he was moving

You don't "stop" the movement, you declare ARO once the first short skill has been fully completed and you then resolve it after the second short skill has been declared and is being accomplished

Well balls... you'd think I would actually know how the game works. I can't believe I never noticed the fact you don't get combat camo on AROs. Apparently that move only works when it's your turn if you can get to LoF of non-leader link team members.

I always assumed the person who made the ARO got to pick any point in the movement to execute it; like moving between two pieces of cover so the person receiving the ARO doesn't get a cover bonus. I know that's allowed. I just never really had to deal with link teams in a situation like that.

 chromedog wrote:
Yes. it does.

Markers will allow the camo'd unit to add its order to the reserve.

You can still stack up to 3 units UNDER that marker, too. So one marker could be 3 orders (which will be given away IF you move it, as you will have to spend 1 order PER unit under it).

This reminds me of some doubts I have. As I understood, a single camo marker provides a single order. Is that right? Regardless of the number of minis (1-3) under the marker? Or one per mini? I think it's only one, because it's one marker.

Which also reminds me of other doubt. Minelayer miniatures can deploy camouflaged (sp?) mines. Since your opponent doesn't know it's a mine until it's discovered, will that marker give you an order? For example: a small army has 3 Line Kazak and 1 Chasseur (minelayer). The Chasseur is deployed as a camo marker, a mine is deployed near him in camo, and the 3 Line Kazaks are deployed as usual. Do I have 4 or 5 regular orders for this first turn? (Let's ignore the LT order for this)

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

It's actually specified about combat camo in the camo rules.

It ONLY works in the ACTIVE turn. You get the neg modifiers for being shot at, but you don't get "the drop" on them in reactive.

You do get to pick what part of their move you attack them at - but they ALWAYS finish the move regardless.

If he moves from total cover to total cover (with a gap between them where you can shoot him), then even if you kill him, he finishes the movement to put him behind that total cover THEN expires.

 Erasoketa wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Yes. it does.

Markers will allow the camo'd unit to add its order to the reserve.

You can still stack up to 3 units UNDER that marker, too. So one marker could be 3 orders (which will be given away IF you move it, as you will have to spend 1 order PER unit under it).

This reminds me of some doubts I have. As I understood, a single camo marker provides a single order. Is that right? Regardless of the number of minis (1-3) under the marker? Or one per mini? I think it's only one, because it's one marker.

Which also reminds me of other doubt. Minelayer miniatures can deploy camouflaged (sp?) mines. Since your opponent doesn't know it's a mine until it's discovered, will that marker give you an order? For example: a small army has 3 Line Kazak and 1 Chasseur (minelayer). The Chasseur is deployed as a camo marker, a mine is deployed near him in camo, and the 3 Line Kazaks are deployed as usual. Do I have 4 or 5 regular orders for this first turn? (Let's ignore the LT order for this)

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

When models are multiple models are under a single marker, they act as one model. One of the FAQ's on Camouflage says that they act using a coordinated order. But if there's a mine under a marker and a model under a marker, only the model generates an order, so you'd have 4 orders.

 Dheneb wrote:
When models are multiple models are under a single marker, they act as one model. One of the FAQ's on Camouflage says that they act using a coordinated order. But if there's a mine under a marker and a model under a marker, only the model generates an order, so you'd have 4 orders.

I'm sorry, I wrote that poorly. In my example I meant the Chasseur to be one camo marker, and the mine to be a different camo marker. I said "near him" because the mine that minelayers can deploy that way, has to be in the zone of control of the minelayer. Also according to the Minelayer FAQs, a mine can't be deployed under the same marker as a miniature. Thanks

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Dheneb wrote:
When models are multiple models are under a single marker, they act as one model. One of the FAQ's on Camouflage says that they act using a coordinated order. But if there's a mine under a marker and a model under a marker, only the model generates an order, so you'd have 4 orders.

I'm sorry, I wrote that poorly. In my example I meant the Chasseur to be one camo marker, and the mine to be a different camo marker. I said "near him" because the mine that minelayers can deploy that way, has to be in the zone of control of the minelayer. Also according to the Minelayer FAQs, a mine can't be deployed under the same marker as a miniature. Thanks

Yeah, a mine and model under different markers is what I meant (seems I wrote poorly too).

So if you have two camo markers out, but can count one fewer orders than models on board + camo markers, they know one is a mine right?

They can perhaps know ONE is a mineLAYER (who may or may not have TO and be 'hidden'. Yes, a TO minelayer can hide whilst his mine within ZoC is just mere camo).

The easier one is NO camo on or near your side of the table half - but you have a couple of camo markers OVER the middle line and you HAVEN'T rolled for them. THAT gives away the fact that THOSE markers are mines.