Why do Imperial Guard even exist?

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**Mozzyfuzzy**

Selym wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

Never tell me the odds!

Fixed that for you.

**Lord Tarkin**

Selym wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

I like those odds!

I love those odds!

**Lord Tarkin**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Selym wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Bludbaff wrote:
99.99howevermany9syouwant % of conflicts will never see a single Marine. It's the only way their number can make sense at all. Most of those other conflicts can be won (or at least fought to a standstill) by Guard alone. Marines are only deployed to the most critical, tide-turning points in the galaxy.

As for Guard numbers, I've always felt like a trillion was a good rough estimate for how many there should be. If there are a million inhabited worlds, and we assume an average population of a billion (with vast deviations from the average...for every Hive world of two hundred billion, you can average it out with a couple hundred worlds whose tiny population devoted to resource extraction or garrison is effectively a rounding error), that suggests a quadrillion humans. Having 0.1% of the population tithed to the Guard, with several times as many committed to PDF, seems like a fairly small (check out this list of modern military numbers and sort by per capita) commitment.

Oh, and I just want to point out that while we're getting into ludicrous numbers here, one quadrillion humans in the Imperium means roughly one per ant alive today (estimated).

Now you wait just a Terran second!!!

Let me math hammer this stuff out. The most common world in the Imperium is the Civilized world. Populations usually range between 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 and the average of those numbers is 4,992,500,000. So most Imperial planets will come close to 4,992,500,000.

Now, the most common tithe grade associated with IG tithes is one tenth of the planets PDF. Assuming one of every 20 people join the PDF, that leaves 249,625,000 PDF troops. One tenth of that number would come to 24,962,500 new guardsmen.

There are about 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, so 1,000,000•24,962,500=24,962,500,000,000.

So there are on average, trillions of guardsmen in the Imperium at any given time.

Never tell me the odds!

Fixed that for you.

**the ancient**

Why not make all guard millitarium then and do away with the guard

**pm713**

the ancient wrote:
Why not make all guard millitarium then and do away with the guard

Then you have no cannon fodder. Plus it takes resources time etc etc.

**Frozen Ocean**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

**Lord Tarkin**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

What's so terrible about it?

Edit: fine I'll go dammit, just stop breaking my balls already.

**Ashiraya**

Because it happens too often for me to bother complaining. No, it's not cool, but unless it is the US military being joked about he won't care, and I can't be arsed with more drama.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

You are right. I should have reacted to that too.

**Ashiraya**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You are right. I should have reacted to that too.

Admittedly, yes. I should get my head out of my butt.

**Exergy**

Ailaros wrote:
Two critical flaws:

Lshowell wrote:With the Space Marines being superior in every way shape and form

They're not. They are better in SOME ways, but not in ALL ways. For example, there are WAY more guardsmen than marines. As said, the imperium would instantly evaporate if it were just up to marines to defend it.
And the fact that there are so few marines points to their other problems, such as...

Lshowell wrote: and if wanted to we could force more second, or third if you will, foundings,

... this. The imperium may WANT more marines, but that doesn't mean they get them.
Space marines are incredibly difficult to create, and take a lot of resources. They take decades to train, and they absorb vast quantities of materiel what with their sacred-oils-blessed-bolters instead of infinite ammo lasguns, and the inefficiency of each chapter maintaining its own fleet and the strategic difficulties of letting them go off and pick their own objectives.
And all of it is completely wasted when you have, say, a war that just needs to be won by attrition. Guardsmen are MUCH better in that strategic role, and in many others as well (defending far-flung listening posts, acting as a local police force, etc. etc.)
Space marines are very good at what they do, and sometimes what you need is to call in the special forces for a complicated, dangerous mission where money is no object. That is far from all the time, though.

This comes up all the time and the answer is always what ailaros just mentioned. Cost. The IoM does not have limitless resources, just as the US does not have limitless resources, just as no one on the planet has limitless resources.

Marines are best at assaulting hardened targets and as a way of increasing force concentration. Guard do most all other jobs better because they do it at a far lower price.

**3dog**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Space Marines are very powerful, but that power means nuthing if they're being gang raped by millions of tyranids.

It's sad to say that it doesn't surprise me that nobody called Tarkin out on this, and instead went for the high heels thing. I'm done being courteous and sending people PMs when they say things like this. Does anyone want to elaborate on why this is not an okay thing to say, or am I just going to learn to hate Dakka?

What's so terrible about it?

Rape is not a funny thing to joke about. It is something that traumatizes its victims & which a number of the board members would prefer you not to make jokes about. A simple matter of being gracious enough to think about other's opinions & sensitivities, no?

**BlaxicanX**

I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

**Melissia**

You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

**Exergy**

BlaxicanX wrote:

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

**Void__Dragon**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

I don't think anyone would be complaining if he said something along the lines of "Slaaneshi cultists sometimes rape people". I reference Slaanesh' propensity for rape every time I bring up the Grey Knights and no one's ever complained.

It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

In theory anyway. I didn't really care.

**BlaxicanX**

Exergy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.

True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Void__Dragon wrote:
It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

It could be, but then by that logic me saying "I'm about to murder your argument" could also be considered insensitive to the act of murder.

Which would be dumb and worthy of all contempt, mah boi.

**Void__Dragon**

Melissia wrote:
You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

That's true and in a perfect world the writers of 40k would have a better sense of scale, but million is sadly the number that's always referenced.

Also so tsundere.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exergy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.
True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Void__Dragon wrote:
It's that he used the term "rape" in a casual manner where no one was actually being raped, meaning the comment could be considered inappropriate and insensitive.

It could be, but then by that logic me saying "I'm about to murder your argument" could also be considered insensitive to the act of murder.

Which would be dumb and worthy of all contempt, mah boi.

thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems. Like starvation, actual rape, and ebola. Lets just choose to ignore stuff we donr like and quit working ourselves into rages and argueing woth people who in all likelyhood dont care. I learned that the hard way on these forums.

Tldr:
Lets ignore stuff that offends us and quit arguing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, do we want this thread shut down? If not just ignore stuff.

**Exergy**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exergy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.
True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

**BlaxicanX**

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.

I would ask you the same question.

Exergy wrote:
Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

I think that's a good parallel to what would happen if the Imperium invested in a Spece Muhreen army. A Space Marine, much like a jet fighter or a drone or something, might individually be vastly more expensive to equip and train than a regular joe, but the flip-side is that the level of extra efficiency you get compensates for the resources spent. It costs the US hundreds to thousands of dollars every time an aircraft fires a missile, but the result is that we can more or less have a powerful and productive military with far less man-power required.

**Lord Tarkin**

Exergy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Exergy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:

Going by in-universe conditions, you can make the argument that the Imperium would struggle to logistically support a Marine army of such size, due to the complexity of their armor and weapons. Considering how massively large the Imperium is though, I'm skeptical of that. With STC's and the amount of man-power, resources and factories within the Imperium, I think they could very easily meet the demands required. The only issue I see would be the Mechanicus' superstition and obsession with rituals slowing the process down, but that's another example of the Imperium just deliberately neutering themselves- that and the Adeptus Astartes.

Depends what kind of resources are consumed creating marines and marine arms and armor. All the cermite and plastisteel doesn't seem to be naturally occuring and needs to be processed. Plasmaguns dont grow on trees. The admech is not able to maintain the machines they have, nor are they able to increase the number of skilled mechanics they have.

A humble bolter is supposed to be a carefully cared for, hand crafted device that took a long time to produce. The admech could produce 100 lasguns or 1 bolter. Hence they do not issue bolters to everyone, or 99% of the imperial guard would be running into battle without guns, Russian style.
True, but this again comes back to the scale.

With how massive the Imperium is, even with a 100:1 lasgun-bolter ratio, the Imperium could, if they wanted to, supply enough bolters for 50 billion Space Marines.

The United States, alone, builds ~6 million guns a year, for reference. Granted, a bolter is far more complex than any of the small-arms we have today, but that's a single country on a single World, without any of the 38,000 years of improvements to mass-production technology. If we assume that it's as easy for a Mechanicus forge to build a Lasgun as it is for us to build a rifle, that would mean that the US, with Mechanicus tech/know-how, could build 60,000 bolt guns by itself annually.

Tis true, but look how each successive gun/tank/aircraft the US buys gets progressively more expensive. Look how each new more advanced thing they go for means they end up having less. The US population is larger today than it was in 1950. It is more prosperous. It spends a larger % of its budget on defense. And yet it has less soldiers, less tanks, and less aircraft.

Who is easier to equip:

24,962,500,000,000 guardsmen or 1,000,000 SM's?

I mean, that's what it ultimately comes down to is numbers. Perhaps it does take the same amount of time to create 100 lasguns compared to a single bolter but there are still almost 25 trillion guardsmen around the Imperium that need to be equiped. I would imagine feeding those masses would be more difficult than 1,000,000 SM's.

**xXWeaponPrimeXx**

Guard are like the army, whereas space marines would be elite special forces teams.

While the Space Marines are good at what they do, they are not there for policing the Imperium and fighting the dregs of the galaxy.

That's what the guard is for. The guard are sent in, en masse, to obliterate a foe.

If the foe is exceedingly difficult/dangerous, then the Imperium will send in some Space Marines in hopes of ending the threat.

Even from a resources stand point? Its easier to equip untold numbers of guardsmen with armor, weapons, rations and ammo than it is to attempt to rebuild things from the dark age of technology, grow a geneseed, implant a geneseed, train the new marine, hope the new marine doesn't die from the implantation of all the special organs and gear (which also have to grown), etc.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.
I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

**Selym**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any joke there.

A strange argument to make though. If referencing rape in your statements traumatizes its victims, then wouldn't referencing murder, terrorism and other horrific things that effect hundreds of millions of people world wide traumatize the victims of those incidents, as well?

In fact... wouldn't merely discussing 40K, a universe that glorifies or at the very least heavily promotes mass amounts of graphic violence and suffering therefore traumatize individuals who have suffered at the hands of similar violence in real life?

While I'm inclined to agree that referring to gang rape should be rethought, you do have a point.

Dakka, and the internet at large, has no problems talking about holocausts, murder, terror acts etc, but then goes a bit square-eyed at mentions of rape.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Melissia wrote:
You know, in BlaxicanX's defense (... a thing I never thought I would be saying...), I like to think of there being far more than "a million worlds" myself.

A million is a pretty small number.

That's true and in a perfect world the writers of 40k would have a better sense of scale, but million is sadly the number that's always referenced.

At the time of first writing, a million seemed far larger than it does now. At the time, we weren't even sure that earth-like planets even existed in the galaxy, and terraforming wasn't exactly a well-known concept.
These days, we are familliar with counting things in the billions/trillions, and have a better sense of universal scale.

**dienekes96**

Someone has to call the mighty Astartes for help.

I mean, why does Bowser employ all those Goombas?

**Tiel**

BlaxicanX wrote:

Dakka, and the internet at large, has no problems talking about holocausts, murder, terror acts etc, but then goes a bit square-eyed at mentions of rape.

As much as I can surmise it's really just two or three people finding issue with it and a handful falling over themselves to agree, more to be politically correct than anything. Had the former not sparked this quarrel I don't think there would be any discussion at all over the post, and this thread would be at least 60% less drama with more interesting posts about the might of the Imperium.

Speaking of which, I've always considered the SM the 'Hammer' of the Imperium's martial might. You have a trillion guardsmen (as someone pointed out above) to do what they're best at - slowing the enemy down with their dead and dying corpses - while you have the more specialist elements dancing around and plugging the holes in that wall of bodies. Life is cheap in 40k, a suit of flak armor is probably more valuable than the soldier wearing it with IoM's pop density.

**Selym**

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.
I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

Or playing the role of the SAS, and making high-profile enemy groups wet themselves with terror by suddenyl dropping out of the sky one day, destroying everything, and the buggering off ASAP with a ton of intel and some rescued hostages.

**mattyrm**

Selym wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
thanks political correct police, but can we quit nitpicking random people's casual and loose use of words that may be offensive to some when there are bigger problems.
I would ask you the same question.

I learned what I said the 'ard way via several arguments.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What i never understood was why the marines were never like actual marines, the first ones the ground. Used for special missions, surgical strikes and breaking the front line forthe inevitable hammer blow of the army/ in this case guard.

Or playing the role of the SAS, and making high-profile enemy groups wet themselves with terror by suddenly dropping out of the sky one day, destroying everything, and the buggering off ASAP with a ton of intel and some rescued hostages.

Space Marines do that gak all the time don't they?

**Melissia**

Space Marines rescue hostages?