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2014/07/30 18:23:55
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Happyjew wrote: How many Marines can be purchased for a Tac Squad out of C: SM in an Unbound list?
I can't answer this question. For the simple fact that I don't own the Space Marine Codex. I think I see where this is going, and it doesn't change the rules as they are written on p 116-117, nor does it excuse the lack of a page/paragraph reference in the BRB forcing the unit restrictions to apply on 'Unbound' lists. It's more than likely going to be used to pick apart other interpretations rather than give a reference to a non-existent rule. I will use the 'Chaos Marine' Codex as a reference if that will satisfy the point of the argument, specifically the Troops entry found on Pg. 95 of C:CSM. I'll also break it down step by step, applying all applicable rules.
1) Play a game, establish any rules/restrictions that are outside the norm, etc. (pg. 116)
"I'm going to play Chaos Marines, but I'm not going to use any unusual rules that require my opponents permission, so we're good to go.
2) Determine Points, and whether you and your opponent will be using the same points (pg. 116) *Listed as the First thing we do.
3) Reference each units points value, found in their army List entry.
"Okay, I look at the entry and see that it's 75 pts. For those points I get 4 Space Marines and an Asp. Champion. Looking at my collection of models, I count lets say, Typhus, a Heldrake, 5 Possessed, and 25 Chaos Space Marines."
"Looking at the entry and still only looking at the points, I have to pay X pts for the MoN since I want to run Typhus with them, I have the option pay 13 pts for each additional Chaos Marine, if I want to run more, so I need to keep that in mind."
(I'll get back to the 'up to fifteen' in a minute, so keep your 'HAH - Got ya!' to yourself for now)
4) Choose how the army will be Organized 'Unbound' or 'Battle-forged'. (pg 117.)
" I really want to run Typhus with as many models as possible to insure that he gets into combat. If I pick a 'Battle-forged' list I'm going to be forced to follow the 'various restrictions' and take 2 units of Troops since I'm already taking Typhus. This leaves me with 1 Squad of 20, and a small squad of 5. The small squad of 5 doesn't have an Aspiring Champion model yet and won't do anything in the game so I don't want to take them. So I guess I'll just run an 'Unbound' list.
(Calculates Points)
" Darn I still need to take those models to make up the points limit that we agreed on. Oh, up to 15 models is a restriction, do I need to follow that? Not according to the rules on pg 116."
NOTE: Forcing the restriction limiting the number of models that he can take in a unit, would be a direct contradiction to the rule on pg 117 that states 'Take whatever units from your collections you want'. While I do agree that a 'unit' is defined by it's entry as being within a certain size, in the case of CSM 5-20, one possible interpretation is that it is another 'various restriction'. Without a rule to EXPLICITLY state one way or the other, there is zero justification for denying him the ability to do so.
5) Primary Detachment / Warlord.
"Typhus is my Warlord, all the units are from C:CSM, so that makes my 'Primary Detachment'
6) Force Roster. This is where we have a final accounting for everything we plan to play with, in one convenient place for both players to see. It even clearly says 'To keep things fair, you must always allow your opponent to read your force roster before a game if they wish to do so.'
THIS is where the problems come up, and why we're even discussing this in the first place! Outside of the rules, Most players will have already completed steps 1-5, and have an 'Unbound' or 'Battle-forged' list ready to go. Those that don't write their lists until they decide to play a game (which is their right to do so, not denying them that), quickly learn to have lists made up. This has NEVER been an issue in previous editions and only causes problems in this edition when the two players disagree on how the 'Unbound' rules are interpreted. You have access to his list before you play a game, and you're more than welcome to decline playing him after seeing his list. Telling him that his list is illegal because that's not how you would interpret it, is a reflection on you as a player, and not the player who chooses to define his model collection, and army different to how you would do it.
Which is EXACTLY what's happening here.
Rest is Opinion so feel free to keep reading if you want, or just ignore it like you're going to ignore anything that I post anyways. There is nothing more to say on this topic for me to be here. All the information, (and lack of it by opponents), has been provided once again for players to make up their own mind, and we're both probably already tired of repeating ourselves like it's going to make a difference.
Spoiler:
Players like the 'OP' want to build a Conscript list. He heard that the 'Unbound' rules could allow him to accomplish this task but he wasn't sure, so he comes to a source where he can get a broader opinion. I agree with what he did 100%, and I don't think anyone would want to invest in any army if they're not going to be able to play with it. He is within his bounds to do so, but instead of telling him he can't do it, the correct response is 'Don't expect a lot of players to play you'. He's trying to save both time and money, by taking care of all of this BEFORE playing both a game, and getting into the hobby.
The fear is players who are going to build 'Unbound' Armies vs. players who want to 'Play' Unbound armies. I'm in complete agreement, that no one should 'Build' an 'Unbound' army for the sake of purely winning. While it is their absolute right to do so, it's hard for me to visualize why anyone would need more than 2 FoC's worth of any particular unit if they plan on playing with them (not going to count the painters, because this rule allows them to play with what they have, and not the other way around). This fear of playing 7 Wraithknights, or 9 Annihilation Barges is what causes people to try to restrict 'Unbound' armies on every inch they can get. The answer to me is quite simple? Why would anyone have a need to buy more than X number of units when the most they're most likely to field is 2 FoC worth. So 6 Wraithknights I can understand, but not 7, since it would have to be a pretty big game if they were going to have to play 3 FoC's in an event. Most likely a Tournament.
The answer to this question is 'TFG'. Like it or hate it, TFG players are going to build TFG lists. This isn't going to change by limiting the Unbound rules without evidence to support it. It's hurting the community as a whole. The one HUGE thing that 'Unbound' requires that people don't look at how serious it is, is that a player must have the models. Sure the 'Well if he buys X models then he'll own them', is a valid point, but you left out the 'Why is he buying the models in the first place?' that goes along with it. TFG players are going to buy models for TFG lists, and it's clear that he did that when anyone asks him 'What other models from the army do you own?'.
For the rest of us, we've all purchased models that we like, or have had given to us as gifts when they don't even belong to our armies. It's also, not uncommon for a Space Marine player to have 2-3 extra models without Special Weapons to replace those with them in certain games. To me 'Command Units' are the victim with crap like this. It's fairly common for Eldar players, for example, to have 2 units of Warlocks, in his collection. There is no rule, both written or moral, that justifies telling him he can't run them in an 'Unbound' army. Same also applies to Options. If a guy wants to build a full 10 man unit of Space Marines with 10 Meltaguns, he has every permission to do so. If he does so, then he has permission to put the on the table under the 'Unbound' rules. Sure this is powerful, and 2 units of these in Drop Pods probably scares the crap out of Imperial Knight/Mechanized lists. Again, I don't recommend it, but it's possible. Especially since it could allow a player who got the FWorld Legion models a way into 'No-FW events' using the normal Codex rules.
Not need to even discuss how restricting 'Unbound' armies only makes certain 'Battle-forged' armies more likely to appear, since the best way to deal with them is by taking an 'Unbound' list.
I'm not here to prove that I'm right, I've made up my mind on this just as much as others have. I've presented counters with references, only to have the same rule w/o references replied, as if it's supposed to somehow mean that I'm wrong. I made the mistake of taking people off my /ignore list for this discussion and gave them the benefit of the doubt, only to end up confirming that they should be there in the first place. Feel free to PM me if you want my opinion on something relating to this matter. Don't bother if you're just going to troll me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:35:53
Current Armies
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30k: Imperial Fists
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2014/07/30 18:28:44
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
How many Marines can be purchased for a Tac Squad out of C: SM in an Unbound list?
Five, of course. But there's a difference: that question is handled as purchasing options within the unit's entry. The "tax" requirements (e.g., Wraithseers requiring the purchase of Wraithguard) happen at the Force Org level, and the argument being leveled is that those requirements are implicitly ignored when purchasing units from an Unbound list (since they are specifically mentioned as limitations within the Battleforged list building section of the BRB)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 18:29:13
2014/07/30 18:30:31
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
nosferatu1001 wrote: So taking whatever units you want means you can take any models you want? Interesting made up rule there.
You can take whatever units you like, not models. Heavy Weapon Teams are a unit in the Astra Militarum Codex, with a unit entry and point cost. And, as per the unbound rules: "simply use whichever units from your collection you want."
The codex states your unit must have 20 models in it and no more. Breaking it with no specific, written allowance is cheating
Not sure which codex you're talking about (20 models? Where is this coming from? I had assumed you were talking about the Astra Militarum or Space Marine codex, but now I'm not so sure).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 19:26:26
2014/07/30 19:29:31
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Akar wrote: NOTE: Forcing the restriction limiting the number of models that he can take in a unit, would be a direct contradiction to the rule on pg 117 that states 'Take whatever units from your collections you want'. While I do agree that a 'unit' is defined by it's entry as being within a certain size, in the case of CSM 5-20, one possible interpretation is that it is another 'various restriction'. Without a rule to EXPLICITLY state one way or the other, there is zero justification for denying him the ability to do so.
Do you understand the difference between "Take whatever units" and "Take whatever models"?
Telling him that his list is illegal because that's not how you would interpret it, is a reflection on you as a player, and not the player who chooses to define his model collection, and army different to how you would do it.
No, it's pretty impossible to interpret 5-20 as anything smaller than 5 or larger than 20.
Spoiler:
Players like the 'OP' want to build a Conscript list. He heard that the 'Unbound' rules could allow him to accomplish this task but he wasn't sure, so he comes to a source where he can get a broader opinion. I agree with what he did 100%, and I don't think anyone would want to invest in any army if they're not going to be able to play with it. He is within his bounds to do so, but instead of telling him he can't do it, the correct response is 'Don't expect a lot of players to play you'. He's trying to save both time and money, by taking care of all of this BEFORE playing both a game, and getting into the hobby.
The fear is players who are going to build 'Unbound' Armies vs. players who want to 'Play' Unbound armies. I'm in complete agreement, that no one should 'Build' an 'Unbound' army for the sake of purely winning. While it is their absolute right to do so, it's hard for me to visualize why anyone would need more than 2 FoC's worth of any particular unit if they plan on playing with them (not going to count the painters, because this rule allows them to play with what they have, and not the other way around). This fear of playing 7 Wraithknights, or 9 Annihilation Barges is what causes people to try to restrict 'Unbound' armies on every inch they can get. The answer to me is quite simple? Why would anyone have a need to buy more than X number of units when the most they're most likely to field is 2 FoC worth. So 6 Wraithknights I can understand, but not 7, since it would have to be a pretty big game if they were going to have to play 3 FoC's in an event. Most likely a Tournament.
The answer to this question is 'TFG'. Like it or hate it, TFG players are going to build TFG lists. This isn't going to change by limiting the Unbound rules without evidence to support it. It's hurting the community as a whole. The one HUGE thing that 'Unbound' requires that people don't look at how serious it is, is that a player must have the models. Sure the 'Well if he buys X models then he'll own them', is a valid point, but you left out the 'Why is he buying the models in the first place?' that goes along with it. TFG players are going to buy models for TFG lists, and it's clear that he did that when anyone asks him 'What other models from the army do you own?'.
For the rest of us, we've all purchased models that we like, or have had given to us as gifts when they don't even belong to our armies. It's also, not uncommon for a Space Marine player to have 2-3 extra models without Special Weapons to replace those with them in certain games. To me 'Command Units' are the victim with crap like this. It's fairly common for Eldar players, for example, to have 2 units of Warlocks, in his collection. There is no rule, both written or moral, that justifies telling him he can't run them in an 'Unbound' army. Same also applies to Options. If a guy wants to build a full 10 man unit of Space Marines with 10 Meltaguns, he has every permission to do so. If he does so, then he has permission to put the on the table under the 'Unbound' rules. Sure this is powerful, and 2 units of these in Drop Pods probably scares the crap out of Imperial Knight/Mechanized lists. Again, I don't recommend it, but it's possible. Especially since it could allow a player who got the FWorld Legion models a way into 'No-FW events' using the normal Codex rules.
Not need to even discuss how restricting 'Unbound' armies only makes certain 'Battle-forged' armies more likely to appear, since the best way to deal with them is by taking an 'Unbound' list.
I'm not here to prove that I'm right, I've made up my mind on this just as much as others have. I've presented counters with references, only to have the same rule w/o references replied, as if it's supposed to somehow mean that I'm wrong. I made the mistake of taking people off my /ignore list for this discussion and gave them the benefit of the doubt, only to end up confirming that they should be there in the first place. Feel free to PM me if you want my opinion on something relating to this matter. Don't bother if you're just going to troll me.
Spoiler:
Feel free to take your ball and go home, but Unbound doesn't mean "absolutely no restrictions ever". We know this because you can't have 100 Calgar's in the same list (Or Typhus since you lack the C: SM).
First of all, the rule in question resides in a Codex. We know for a fact that rules in a Codex win out over rules in the BRB if there's a conflict. Unbound (BRB) rule puts no restrictions in place. The Codex puts restrictions in place. Based on the Codex > BRB rule, we know the Codex restrictions must be adhered to.
And really, the rest of your rant can be summed up with "Don't dogpile on the new guy!" We aren't. We're letting him know what's legal and what isn't. Just like I would if he tried to roll on the To Wound chart after missing his shots.
The codex states your unit must have 20 models in it and no more. Breaking it with no specific, written allowance is cheating
Not sure which codex you're talking about (20 models? Where is this coming from? I had assumed you were talking about the Astra Militarum or Space Marine codex, but now I'm not so sure).
Akar's post referenced Chaos Marines from CSM which max out at 20 models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 19:30:26
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/07/30 19:58:11
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Don_mondo, There are balanced Unbound lists, insane unbound lists, narrative unbound lists and then there are 'That ******* Guy's' Unbound lists. Don't just paint them all with the same brush.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 19:59:31
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
2014/07/30 20:02:26
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
nosferatu1001 wrote: So taking whatever units you want means you can take any models you want? Interesting made up rule there.
You can take whatever units you like, not models. Heavy Weapon Teams are a unit in the Astra Militarum Codex, with a unit entry and point cost. And, as per the unbound rules: "simply use whichever units from your collection you want."
The codex states your unit must have 20 models in it and no more. Breaking it with no specific, written allowance is cheating
Not sure which codex you're talking about (20 models? Where is this coming from? I had assumed you were talking about the Astra Militarum or Space Marine codex, but now I'm not so sure).
Yep, and the codex rule states that, to take a hwt , you must take other units. Please explain your permission to ignore that restriction
Chaos space marines.
2014/07/30 20:28:07
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yep, and the codex rule states that, to take a hwt , you must take other units. Please explain your permission to ignore that restriction
The incredibly sweeping and simple nature of the unbound rule gives us permission. For me, it all boils down to the "simply use whichever units from your collection you want" sentence of the unbound rules. To me, that's saying you can take any unit you want - no strings attached (with maybe the one exception being Unique models - there's a black box right after the Battleforged talking about Unique models, but I'm not sure if it only applies to Battleforged, or is meant to apply to any type of list building). Furthermore, there are several references in the following army building sections about how detachments work about how some units have special requirements beyond the force org chart (like the wraithseer or hwt); these types of restrictions are always talked about in the context of Detachments, of which there is no equivalent concept in Unbound lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:28:42
2014/07/30 20:32:47
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
If I take a squad of Assault Marines from C:SM and take away their Jump Packs, the squad can take a free Drop Pod.
Since I can take any unit I want, and a Drop Pod is a unit, I can have an unlimited number of Drop Pods in an Unbound army and they don't cost any points, right? After all, a free Drop Pod is an available unit in C: SM. It just has a requirement to take it, which apparently does not matter.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2014/07/30 20:41:54
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Yes we all understand the codex restrictions one must adhere to when making an army list. Let's call that list battle forged. Unbound clearly states take whatever units you want. That's it. If you wanted a force of just spirit seers then by all means do it.
It's unbound in everyway. No restrictions, no force org, just unbound. Once you follow restrictions it's not unbound anymore. Think of it as unbound by any FOC RULES.
In a dog eat dog be a cat.
2014/07/30 20:51:56
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
If I take a squad of Assault Marines from C:SM and take away their Jump Packs, the squad can take a free Drop Pod.
Since I can take any unit I want, and a Drop Pod is a unit, I can have an unlimited number of Drop Pods in an Unbound army and they don't cost any points, right? After all, a free Drop Pod is an available unit in C: SM. It just has a requirement to take it, which apparently does not matter.
Drop Pods have a unit entry, and they're 35 points. What you're talking about is the Assault Marine entry, which allows you to swap the jump packs for a drop pod within it's unit. You don't get a "free" drop pod, you're swapping options within the unit entry. Don't conflate it with the "unit tax" concept.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 20:55:18
2014/07/30 21:39:19
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Daniel - yes, the incredibly GENERAL statement is naturally overridden by the far more SPECIFIC statement telling you to taxe X first if you wish to take Y. As that is how rules work.
If you want it to override restrictions within a units rules, such as how many models you may take etc, then you need an actual rule stating so
2014/07/31 13:01:46
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
If I take a squad of Assault Marines from C:SM and take away their Jump Packs, the squad can take a free Drop Pod.
Since I can take any unit I want, and a Drop Pod is a unit, I can have an unlimited number of Drop Pods in an Unbound army and they don't cost any points, right? After all, a free Drop Pod is an available unit in C: SM. It just has a requirement to take it, which apparently does not matter.
Drop Pods have a unit entry, and they're 35 points. What you're talking about is the Assault Marine entry, which allows you to swap the jump packs for a drop pod within it's unit. You don't get a "free" drop pod, you're swapping options within the unit entry. Don't conflate it with the "unit tax" concept.
Funnily enough most argumentative people will most likely never play Unbound games anyway. I suppose arguing is fun, or something. There's also no rules support to show otherwise as has been pointed out. Hey, you can even choose not to use any points limits, how do you funnel us to use the rules then?
I really see that Unbound format as you describe, take whatever you want as long as you meet the points cost, without any tax.
To the question of taking any number of marines, as it's not said how many points individual marines cost, we'll have to take what the codex says, ie. pay the cost of 4 marines and 1 sergeant for n points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/31 13:02:33
2014/07/31 13:03:05
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
The BRB says you can take any units you own, this is better thought of as not having to abide by any sort of FOC and IMO it should have been worded so and just worded better. It is a sweeping statement and it is a very bad sweeping statement.
The codex tells you how to purchase units. There is no reason you would ignore unit taxes and such but still use the unit rules, points limit, unit type, unit composition etc, they are all in the same bag. Battleforged method itself does not mention to use those things, so can we just ignore those too?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/31 13:47:39
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic
2014/07/31 13:53:05
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Indeed, saying you can ignore unit rules, despite having noa llowance to do so, you may as well ignore the stat line as well, and just use whatever you want to.
The limit that Unbound removes is on any form of organisation of the units you have, it does not remove, in any way, the actual unit construction rules themselves. The easy way to know this is that nowehre does it SAY they are removed.
2014/08/01 10:09:35
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Why is this so complicated? You ignore the FOC, that's it. That's all the rule tells you to ignore. You must follow the unit guidelines as written in the codex. You can take 15 HQs if you want. You cannot take 15 grey hunters with melta guns and call it 1 unit. How are people interpreting unbound to mean you can ignore unit rules in the codex? Despite walls of text I haven't seen one thing saying you can ignore unit guidelines from the codex and I've spoken with quite a few GW employees and TOs about unbound armies.
2014/08/01 19:14:27
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Toofast, while I agree with you, I disagree with your appeal to authority.
TO's can make whatever rules they want for their Tournaments. If a TO says that C: SM is illegal, then for that Tournament, C: SM is illegal. It does not make C: SM illegal any other time.
As for GW red shirts...I'm not going there. Needless to say they should be saying that unbound literally you can take anything with no restrictions, as that will only drum up sales.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2014/08/02 03:27:27
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
TOs also have a very good understanding of the rules. The conversations were not "how is unbound handled in your tournaments?" as they don't allow unbound at all. The discussion was about whether RAW or even RAI allowed you to ignore codex guidelines and every answer I've ever gotten from someone knowledgeable about the ruleset says no. Common sense and reading comprehension skills also point to no. It's not my business to tell anyone how to play their game, I'm just explaining that the rulebook doesn't allow that in any way, shape or form. Take whatever UNITS you want, ignoring only the FOC.
2014/08/02 06:38:53
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
JinxDragon wrote: Don_mondo,
There are balanced Unbound lists, insane unbound lists, narrative unbound lists and then there are 'That ******* Guy's' Unbound lists.
Don't just paint them all with the same brush.
Well I don't know about TOs having a good understanding of the rules. In my last tournament they ruled that once a Crypteks Warrior squad was dead the Cryptek was not a troop. Then they ruled that each Cryptek counted as a HQ and was worth 3 kill points like every other HQ. I was not happy that day.
Pretty sure that only happened because the local players of that area hate necrons and convinced their buddy to do it that way Mythra.
TO's are people to, and players at that. They have every right to run their tournaments how they want. Its an expensive and time consuming event that they work hard at. The ones that play the game argue and disagree about GW's rulings just as much as we do here on dakka.
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2014/08/04 14:57:09
Subject: Wraithseer in an unbound list. Is the wraithguard tax still required?
Mythra wrote: Well I don't know about TOs having a good understanding of the rules. In my last tournament they ruled that once a Crypteks Warrior squad was dead the Cryptek was not a troop. Then they ruled that each Cryptek counted as a HQ and was worth 3 kill points like every other HQ. I was not happy that day.
Oooph... that's harsh
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/04 14:57:33
In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
