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Herzlos wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
7th is a really solid edition of the game, but still, like 5th (the last solid edition), it only really works between around 1500 and 2500 points, at a stretch. And you have to either bring in official rulings for balance about how many detachments/formations/etc. are allowed, or you have to use soft scores or similar.

It *needs* a half-decent skirmish game too, for those smaller games.

I do agree with other posters that GW's biggest problem right now is likely to be people not buying codices. The price jump is too huge, without a significant jump in value. Hardcover is nice but not worth twice as much as softcover. And when the default is "you need to buy two codices and a couple of dataslates and some new cards and tokens to get the most out of your army... and the same for any allied armies..." Whut? Most of us buy GW stuff because we want to model, paint, and/or play games with the minis. Anyone who only does painting or modelling doesn't need codices anyway (but will probably pick them up, if reasonably priced, for the fluff and the pics of painted minis). Anyone who wants to play, is *actively put off* at the thought of having to spend over £100 on rulebooks to stay vaguely competitive.

The codex problem becomes worse now because at that price point you can get the core rules for many game systems, or even the X-Wing starter set. It makes it a very bad comparison.

Quite. For half what the Tyranid codex cost me I just bought Malifaux 2nd edition. Throw in a cheap Arsenal deck and I got my 'codex' too. For 2/3 of the price I could buy the core rules for Infinity if I really wanted the hardback rulebook (I do).

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"


Anyway, back OT

Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?

Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"


Anyway, back OT

Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?

Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.

Bloody hell man!

'The Emperor'

'Storm Troopers'

'Galactic'

'Empire'

'Space'

'Wars'

'Plasma'

'Lasers'

'Ships'

'Imperial Fleet'.........

A space ship game?

No, just no, wayyy to close to GW's original and not inspired by anything ever universe.

Imagine Alan Merrits head exploding!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"


Anyway, back OT

Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?

Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.

GW has demonstrated with the Hobbit that they no longer have the knowledge necessary to turn such a partnership profitable.

A few random thoughts to add to the conversation:

More that a few suggested bringing back box games like Necromunda, BFG, Mordheim, etc. I'm thinking there may be more going on that just having the will to bring back discontinued games. What if the molds are worn or need re-tooling? What if the molds have been damaged or destroyed since they discontinued the games? What if their move away from metal soured the relationship with suppliers and they can no longer get the amounts they need at a reasonable price or in the quantities required?

If they are going to bring games back from the dead, how about WH Historicals? Try to capitalize on the growing historical base and print more books. I'm sure it wouldn't cost too much to clean them up a bit and do a few print runs. The historical line won’t save the company, but it should generate some income.

2112 wrote:
A few random thoughts to add to the conversation:

More that a few suggested bringing back box games like Necromunda, BFG, Mordheim, etc. I'm thinking there may be more going on that just having the will to bring back discontinued games. What if the molds are worn or need re-tooling? What if the molds have been damaged or destroyed since they discontinued the games? What if their move away from metal soured the relationship with suppliers and they can no longer get the amounts they need at a reasonable price or in the quantities required?

If they are going to bring games back from the dead, how about WH Historicals? Try to capitalize on the growing historical base and print more books. I'm sure it wouldn't cost too much to clean them up a bit and do a few print runs. The historical line won’t save the company, but it should generate
some income.

I would suggest spiritual successors to both Mordheim and Necromunda. Use existing Fantasy/40k kits. Utilize them as gateways to the larger games.

They won't touch the historical ranges; they don't have any mini's to sell. From what I can remember the Warhammer historicals only kept going so long because it was someones pet project.

They probably would have to re-do moulds and get new boxes printed for the legacy games, but if they've still got the masters it's a fairly trivial task - dozens of small companies get new moulds made all the time. They could even outsource. Same with the metal casting.

I also think there'd be a reasonable market for a Citadel Collectors Series - re-release a short run of a few classic mini's every month on cast to order basis. Target the stuff that's expensive on eBay just now. They'd quite easily make back the cost of making a new mould and the short production run. They already own the rights and the masters, so there's almost no outlay or risk.

Reviving a couple of the specialist games could be done fairly quickly as the rules already exist. New boxed sets with completely new components like Space Hulk 3 might do pretty well, and they can stick within their own fluff background.

The historical games are an interesting idea. In one way one boggles that GW did not take advantage of the anniversary the First World War to promote their Warhammer: Great War rules. I presume they are only interested in games that people cannot play with alternative models. Once again they have been overtaken by many rivals in this area and it might simply alert HHHobbyists to the existence of alternatives.

Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"


Anyway, back OT

Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?

Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.

Gw's rules for the last decade or so, Dreadfleet especially, would suggest that even with the license, the likelihood of them producing X-wing was precisely nil.

They would have produced what they know, small finecast minis that need painting, and a ruleset based heavily on randomness. X-Wing isnt great because its star wars - Attack Fighter and its often awful models using the same rules is also popular- it is great because it is a quick to play, incredibly fun game that doesnt require much time investment.

It is very telling that whilst that game is taking the tabletop world by storm, GW released a new version of their game that takes even longer to play. That 'no market research' things is working out well.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?

Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.

'Cos all of the money they could've made off X-Wing might've been money that they didn't make off 40K, and that would be baaad!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:They won't touch the historical ranges; they don't have any mini's to sell. From what I can remember the Warhammer historicals only kept going so long because it was someones pet project.

Yarp. And when Rick left, and brought his superior mass-battle system to be published and released by the Fat Bloke et al, that was the final nail in the coffin.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The historical games are an interesting idea. In one way one boggles that GW did not take advantage of the anniversary the First World War to promote their Warhammer: Great War rules.

'Cos Warhammer Historicals died a death years ago (see above)?

Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.

I would disagree and here's an example. Anybody can make and sell cola, but do you think Coca Cola worry that other people make cola? Doubtful.

X-wing or a similar star wars game could have saved GW (or at least boosted profits) and here's two reasons why:

1) Like I said earlier, GW would have been more than capable of producing a pre-painted, quick to play starter game. Even losing a small percentage to royalty payments would have still made it possible.

2) Do I's law of retail number 1 if you've selling something, make sure the customer can see what else you have for sale. Any person walking into a GW store to buy x-wing would have noticed (unless they were blind) all the other stuff on sale. Do not estimate the power of impulse buying, and staff giving customers a friendly nudge. Oh, you like x-wing, why not try this other very similar GW game. Supermarkets do it all the time. They put bacon next to eggs.


Point being, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to sell stuff. I know this, and I'm not even in retail.

Warhammer Historicals would be ridiculous for them to release, for several reasons:

1) There are alternative games already entrenched in that market, so what benefit would one have by choosing Warhammer Historicals? IIRC wasn't its main selling point at the time being a 28mm historical game when most were 15mm?

2) #1 notwithstanding, either they would want to produce their own miniatures for it, which would likely be overpriced and probably not bought, or deal with competition (e.g. Victrix, Perry, Warlord, others)

3) If they made it something that could be used with other lines, then it already exists as Hail Caesar (also PIke & Shotte and Black Powder) and there would be no compelling reason to buy Warhammer Historicals over the others.

The most they could hope for I think would be something like Kill Team + Inquisitor; a game that uses a small amount of 28mm 40k figures in skirmish games with a rules set that encourages narrative campaign games, and customization. Release a generic version, then release a Gorkamorka supplement (to help sell those shiny new Orks), then re-re-release a Space Hulk supplement w/terrain (cheap terrain, because nobody is going to buy that Zone Mortalis gak for hundreds). They now have something to compete with Infinity and Deadzone for not a lot of extra investment, only with one major selling point Infinity/Deadzone doesn't have: The 40k setting and background. They can then expand this with campaign packs (see how Deadzone has done theirs) at a reasonable price, let's say $25 for the booklet. Make it multi-player friendly too for team games.

That's all they can reasonably do, as anything else either will require too much (completely new molds or redoing old figures in plastic) or would have competition already entrenched.

I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.

I'd much rather have an individual stand alone game that focused on something different. Necromunda is great, and it specifically is not about using small numbers of space marines so that you feel you are playing mini-40k, it's a game and world entirely of it's own that happens to fit into the 40k background and tells us a lot about civilian life in the empire. Gorkamorka was less successful but also a lot of fun, Mordheim is also very creditable. Just recycling the current figures ranges into a small game adds nothing significant to what GW already offers. It's also very timid, lacking real imagination and isn't a bold move to do something new and attractive. One of the problems with GW seems to be a lack of diversity, if you don't want 40k there's very little on offer. Big 40k or mini-40k is not product diversity. GW seemed to be at their most successful when they were an actual workshop of games during the 90s making Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Mordhiem and others. That's when they rapidly spread across the UK, when their shops were interesting and their magazine was a great read. Now they focus on a single product in a niche hobby and everything revolves around aggressively pushing that product through their stores and magazine, instead of actually being interesting and appealing. Their magazine is a tedious picture book. Their shops have increasingly limited product and don't have interesting things to look at because all the tables are gone and they're manned by one person.

An inquisition type game would be a great move, hell there's already a community for Inquisimunda/Inq28 that has to make all their own material. Theres geat potential for miniatures and conversion, different warbands of inquisition of various stripes, cultists, fanatics, mutants, xenos, all on a spectrum of good-evil. It would allow some great source material and different eye catching models. It would be diverse from 40k in the main, as it encourages access to the bigger game without sharing miniature ranges.

But there could be other things they could do, but it has to be exciting and eye catching. To prove GW have wasted so many opportunities by scrapping their specialist games, fantasy football, spaceship games, fantasy naval games, gang warfare games, are all being done successfully by other companies. They've abandoned all those so a rerelease probably won't cut it. Time to be creative, if they've still got it in them after letting many of the older studio members go.

 Eldarain wrote:

I would suggest spiritual successors to both Mordheim and Necromunda. Use existing Fantasy/40k kits. Utilize them as gateways to the larger games.

This is a great idea. Have a few smaller skirmish games set in the Warhammer/Warhammer 40k world where you might need to purchase 1 small box of Wood Elves (like, 10 men) and 1 small box of Skaven and maybe a character each, then have a campaign for those two sets to play through. Have rules for other aggressors so your friends could pick up a box of Ogres or Orcs and you could substitute out storylines. Then they could then scale up the campaign (a la HeroQuest and Kellar's Keep, etc.) and have you purchase a box of cavalry or poison wind globadiers, etc., etc. Eventually, you'd find yourself finished with this reasonably affordable campaign and you might try your hand at painting the miniatures. Before you know it, you are interested in doing larger scale battles and so you take a look at the Codex for one of your sets. Now you've "bought in" to Warhammer without even realizing it and having fun doing it, all the while learning game mechanics and forming a fledgling gaming circle.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.

I would disagree and here's an example. Anybody can make and sell cola, but do you think Coca Cola worry that other people make cola? Doubtful.

Really bad example - because Coke has in the past done exactly that, and shot themselves in the foot by doing so - look up New Coke/Coke II...
'Pepsi is catching up to us! Let's make Coke taste more like Pepsi!'

Turned out that the folks that liked Coke didn't want it to taste like Pepsi.....

Coke also spends a lot of money on market research....

The Auld Grump

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.

That's what 6th edition Kill Team was

Really though, they can't afford right now to spin up custom figures, they have to put something fairly quick out there. Hence my suggestions they should focus on writing something similar to Kill Team but less lazy; not just 40k with fewer figures but closer to Inquisitor. Something that can stand alone, but use 28mm figures from 40k.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.

I'd much rather have an individual stand alone game that focused on something different. Necromunda is great, and it specifically is not about using small numbers of space marines so that you feel you are playing mini-40k, it's a game and world entirely of it's own that happens to fit into the 40k background and tells us a lot about civilian life in the empire. Gorkamorka was less successful but also a lot of fun, Mordheim is also very creditable. Just recycling the current figures ranges into a small game adds nothing significant to what GW already offers. It's also very timid, lacking real imagination and isn't a bold move to do something new and attractive. One of the problems with GW seems to be a lack of diversity, if you don't want 40k there's very little on offer. Big 40k or mini-40k is not product diversity. GW seemed to be at their most successful when they were an actual workshop of games during the 90s making Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Mordhiem and others. That's when they rapidly spread across the UK, when their shops were interesting and their magazine was a great read. Now they focus on a single product in a niche hobby and everything revolves around aggressively pushing that product through their stores and magazine, instead of actually being interesting and appealing. Their magazine is a tedious picture book. Their shops have increasingly limited product and don't have interesting things to look at because all the tables are gone and they're manned by one person.

An inquisition type game would be a great move, hell there's already a community for Inquisimunda/Inq28 that has to make all their own material. Theres geat potential for miniatures and conversion, different warbands of inquisition of various stripes, cultists, fanatics, mutants, xenos, all on a spectrum of good-evil. It would allow some great source material and different eye catching models. It would be diverse from 40k in the main, as it encourages access to the bigger game without sharing miniature ranges.

I agree, the skirmish game shouldn't just be scaled down 40K or FB, and should have its own model range. However, it should be in the same scale and there should be some overlap. I'm sure at least half of the people who bought Space Hulk, bought it to use the models in 40K. Some sort of Inquisimunda would be the best candidate (Hell, it could literally be Inquisitors in Necromunda!) Inquisitors and their warbands, various chaos cults, gangs and mercenaries.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


1) Like I said earlier, GW would have been more than capable of producing a pre-painted, quick to play starter game.

Nothing of their output for the last quarter of a century suggests they would come up with that idea, so why are you certain they could?

I'm not suggesting they couldnt manufactur such a game, I'm telling you they would never, ever design such a game.

X Wing exists because FFG too the basic game play of the WW1 fighter plane game they already had and added Star Wars and some finesse to the presentation.

GW would have produced Dreadfleet in space - not because they are silly or not good designers, but because that is the only thing GW management would approve.

They already have it, its called kill teams, what they need to do is properly support it.

If you put Necromunda (including the various expansion rules from the Journal/Gang War/Fanatic), Inquisitor, Kill Team and research into what people like about current non-GW skirmish games into a pot and stirred carefully you could pretty easily come out with something excellent. Arbites, Inquisitorial Retinues, Genestealer Cults, Hive Gangs, Chaos Cults, personal warriors of noble houses/politicians/the church/rogue traders, various human/pirate Xenos etc etc set in a more wild area of space (edge of the Maelstrom for example) would give plenty of depth.

If they released a small scale skirmish game with solid rules (or even a rehash of Necromunda rules) that featured Genestealer Cults as a faction I would be very severely tempted. And I'd probably end up collecting other factions, too, since that's what I inevitably do in any miniatures game.

With all due respect to my fellow dakka members, the idea that a skirmish game is going to save GW, is pretty ridiculous.

Necromunda/Mordheim etc as good as they are, didn't exactly set the world on fire when GW took them seriously. They're too niche, too small scale to make any decent boost to profits.

Other people have articulated the solutions to GW's woes far better than me.

What's needed is community engagement, feedback and surveys, turning up to independent events, better relations with local independents, sponsorship, reasonable prices etc etc

There's nothing wrong with GW wanting to make an 'elite' range of niche models. In this day and age of video games and 3D printing, it would be a viable, long term prospect. The fanbase is there, and if treated properly, the fanbase had shown itself in the past to be remarkably loyal.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
With all due respect to my fellow dakka members, the idea that a skirmish game is going to save GW, is pretty ridiculous.

Necromunda/Mordheim etc as good as they are, didn't exactly set the world on fire when GW took them seriously. They're too niche, too small scale to make any decent boost to profits.

Other people have articulated the solutions to GW's woes far better than me.

What's needed is community engagement, feedback and surveys, turning up to independent events, better relations with local independents, sponsorship, reasonable prices etc etc

There's nothing wrong with GW wanting to make an 'elite' range of niche models. In this day and age of video games and 3D printing, it would be a viable, long term prospect. The fanbase is there, and if treated properly, the fanbase had shown itself in the past to be remarkably loyal.

Your right, all of the things that you said are pretty pivotal if GW wants to ensure its longevity and a return to growth.

But they also need a gateway game because their main products are too expensive to get into, and a diversity of games that encourage their fanbase to remain "in house" for all of their gaming needs because when people get tired of 40k / WHFB they have nothing else to play in the GW inventory.

A skirmish game (or series of games) that was set in the same universe but at the same time was diverse from their two main products, enough to provide veterans with a sort of palate clenser when they became tired of 40k / WHFB, would serve all of those purposes.

Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.

 Crimson wrote:
Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.

Could GW even do it competently though? They seem to be creatively bankrupt.

 Crimson wrote:
Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.

Indeed, they could also sell the startersets or battle boxes in big chain stores.

If GW announced a skirmish game using 40k models, I'd buy a couple boxes of Cadians and the FW Renegade Militia conversion kits today.

They better take their current situation seriously. Bad news spreads like wildfire, and in the few short days since that report has come out - I'm already seeing detrimental effects in the community. People don't want to spend money on a game with an uncertain future. Attracting new customers is going to be even more difficult now. I don't see this ending well for GW.

Games Workshop just needs to realize that charging for rules, or at least what they charge for rules, is done for. The other games I play all have rules either in the kit, free, or available for cheap. $50 for a game book? Is it the hardcover main rulebook? No? Go jog on.

For $60, I can own all the rules for Warmachine and Hordes for life. Any new updates? Free. Any new units? Free. They have to make the rules to sell the models (unless it's an LE), so why lock them behind a massive pay wall? What's considered a formation and worth $5-$15 from GW is a tier list in warmachine and it's a free, additional fluffy way to play your models. Infinity has this with Sectorials, too.

GW has to step up their own game, and also meet or beat feature parity with their growing competition. Otherwise, I wouldn't consider a skirmish game from GW or 40k ever again.

 Baragash wrote:
If you put Necromunda (including the various expansion rules from the Journal/Gang War/Fanatic), Inquisitor, Kill Team and research into what people like about current non-GW skirmish games into a pot and stirred carefully you could pretty easily come out with something excellent. Arbites, Inquisitorial Retinues, Genestealer Cults, Hive Gangs, Chaos Cults, personal warriors of noble houses/politicians/the church/rogue traders, various human/pirate Xenos etc etc set in a more wild area of space (edge of the Maelstrom for example) would give plenty of depth.

This. Throw in a few cherubs, box it up and call it 'Rogue Trader'. Make it really simple so even non-gamers can get their heads round it [e.g. 'hit & miss' dice] and so that it is stocked in book shops and newsagents. Advertise on TV!!!! Release expansion packs. Include a flyer inside about 40k. Do a similar thing but set in WHFB world. Release 'Advanced' versions, stealing ideas from Infinity and WM&H. Watch sales fly in.

Even the most jaded former GW customers tend to agree that the setting is awesome, and there's so much more to milk from it.

I half expect GW to abandon Fantasy at some point. In fact I would not be surprised at all should Fantasy head the way of the dodo.

There is hardly anything GW can protect or offer as watertight and wanted IP/Brand within that system.

Hope I am wrong as 3rd ed Fantasy was the first rules book I brought but. with fantasy as one of the most generic tropes out there a litigious and money grabbing GW probably sees slim value in it's second game system.