Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Backfire wrote:
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best

There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.

Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.

They could also go into Pachinko machines.

GW spent years building up the following that it used to have and I you can say that it didn't need any real advertising. World of mouth worked as they were the only player about and had no rivals. It was the only place you could get a Sci Fi or Fantasy game. Most gaming clubs were Historical or RPG's and they looked down on this new upstart world. When I played the original Epic & 2nd edition 40k, the only other shop in my area, Bournemouth, was a comic shop and it's stock was very limited.

Times have changed and things have moved on. There are gaming clubs that you can go to to get a game. Indies now stock the systems of rivals and run tables for them. GW's brutal and money grabbing response will not help them.

There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.

Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.

I think the two most effective means of conveying their product to people are video games and selling the magazines where people can see them. It gives them much greater exposure than word of mouth does and it also generates profit FOR GW.

I don't know why they've stopped selling white dwarf in my local news agents; seems like a dumb move to make.

They do make good video games though, me discovering them and then that some of my mates played the game got me into it.

They did have advertising though; admittedly not done by GW themselves, but Hasbro or De Agnosti (?). They also had promenade in lots of places so it was very easy for non-gamers to find GW by chance.

White Dwarf is a good point; it used to be available everywhere as well, so kids could get exposed to it without having to go looking.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:

There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.

Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.

I think the two most effective means of conveying their product to people are video games and selling the magazines where people can see them. It gives them much greater exposure than word of mouth does and it also generates profit FOR GW.

I don't know why they've stopped selling white dwarf in my local news agents; seems like a dumb move to make.

They do make good video games though, me discovering them and then that some of my mates played the game got me into it.

They stopped selling White Dwarf because their dreadful and declining editorial policies caused sales to fall so low that many newsagents stopped wanting to stock it.

I agree with Backfire that word of mouth and demonstration are the two best methods for selling the games to new people. That is why it is worrying that GW have been cutting back on word of mouth and demonstration for several years. I believe this, combined with very high prices, especially of the rules and codexes, has caused their current problem.

As for GW listening to the current players, there are some signs that they are trying to respond although perhaps in a rather limited way. For instance the slipcase rulebook for 7th edition would have been exactly what a lot of people wanted if GW had sold the rules volume separately for a much lower price as an alternative to the full three volume set. GW got halfway to where people want them to be, and maybe in the fullness of time they will get all the way. This gives me hope that things will get turned around.

 Daba wrote:

These two would not be capable of continuing separately from GW main since without the supported setting, Forgeworld models are above average (but not top of class) quality pricy resin generic spacemen/soldier.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

This makes it clear that the core games are the driving power of the company. Black Library is a minor spin-off that is nice to have but could not survive by itself if the core games vanished.

I will definitely grant that without the Warhammer 40k game, Warhammer 40k books and Forgeworld models would not be able to sustain themselves.

But GW needn't be the producer/supporter of the setting in order for it to be supported/exist. Chapterhouse Studios is able to make money despite not producing the main game, because the main game is being produced/supported, that GW is the one supporting/producing the game is largely irrelevant (well, except for the lawsuits of course, that's all GW). Licensing out the game to be supported by somebody else would certainly not entail the Core Games vanishing. It would mean that that all the costs of owning/running the factories and distribution would be delegated to someone else, in return for royalties from the license (which while being of a lesser revenue than they have now, would be a substantially larger source of licensing revenue than has previously been acquired.)

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Vertical integration is a strategy that GW fell into accidentally rather than picked deliberately. GW used to be a pure distributor, then added retailing, developed a retail chain, a publishing business and a model manufacturing business, then their own games. Then over the years they have cut back and got rid of everything 3rd party, and reduced the range of their own games to just two. It would not have been possible to set up a huge retail chain on the back of 40K /Fantasy, and it would not have been possible to popularise 40K/Fantasy without the existing retail chain.

Yet I do not think this is true of the present environment, that the existing retail chain is necessary. The way it is described how they've got into this situation it is like how the laryngeal nerve of a giraffe ended up taking a 15-foot detour from where it started to where it needs to be. But unlike the deficiencies of biological designs, we can get rid of what isn't working rather than working with what we have:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

It has been suggested that GW should maximise the utility of their retail chain by diversifying the product line up to include 3rd party titles such as the Fantasy Flight games licensed from GW, and more games than just 40K/Fantasy.

Case in point. It would be far more effective to simply sell the stores. Having a GW store with non-GW product in it would be just the same as having an FLGS with GW product in it. Only in the latter case GW would not have to pay the rent or wages. Vertical Integration for GW is like a burst appendix right now, and everybody else in the market was smart enough to get theirs removed before it happened.

At this point even if they insist on having a physical presence, with their current attitude to running their existing stores with 1-man shops and hard selling they'd be better off renting mall kiosks like the cell-phone companies do.
-----------

Tho aside from this I imagine that the revenue is much lower from BL/FW than GW, and definitely accept this as a reason why they don't make separate sections.

I agree very much with your thoughts.

A lot of the background actually has generated by freelance writers, e.g. Dan Abnett, elaborating on the original foundations from the 1980s, as far as the BL books go. The codex stuff is all written in house AFAIK.

The vertical integration strategy appears to me to be an accidental historical development rather than a cunning plan. To the extent that it is designed to serve higher management's purposes, I feel it is based on their obvious paranoia and control freakery rather than any developed business planning.

At any rate it isn't working any more.

Herzlos wrote:

Backfire wrote:
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best

There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.

Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.

Remember when GW actively engaged the FLGS including their system of "Outriders" who traveled to various stores to promote events, conduct demo games, run tournaments and painting sessions, all designed to promote 40K and WHFB?

That's advertising. It's honestly probably the best advertising that GW ever did in the USA, and is probably the main reason that GW got as successful as it was in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

Backfire wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.

How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?

How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?

GW gets new players by good old-fashioned word-of-mouth. Every player in my gaming group has been 'recruited' this way: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army, demoes it again to some other new guy who gets excited etc. It's like a virus. Of course, prerequisite for this (quite effective) way of marketing is that there are existing players who are excited about the product. An army gathering dust abandoned in the closet does not attract anyone else to play the game.

People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.

The LOTR bubble wants a word with you. Why was LOTR wildly popular? Because GW advertised the product line.

And when LEGO was going bankrupt a major part of how the company got turned around was doing market research for the first time since forever. I don't do 'market' research, per se, but I am a professional small group researcher. With the right methodology, putting a dozen people in a room and asking them what they think is incredibly valuable, especially when compared to, you know, assuming things.

Problem is GW then used Indies as test sites. If they were doing the business then GW would think about opening their own store. They should of just stuck to supporting Indies and give them good incentives to keep promoting their stuff. GW could of gone as far as providing inhouse staff to handle the GW sales.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I agree very much with your thoughts.

A lot of the background actually has generated by freelance writers, e.g. Dan Abnett, elaborating on the original foundations from the 1980s, as far as the BL books go. The codex stuff is all written in house AFAIK.

The vertical integration strategy appears to me to be an accidental historical development rather than a cunning plan. To the extent that it is designed to serve higher management's purposes, I feel it is based on their obvious paranoia and control freakery rather than any developed business planning.

At any rate it isn't working any more.

Don't forget Ian Watson

It's worth mentioning that marketing is not the same as advertising. Marketing includes just about anything to manipulate your company or product image, including engaging in social media and running tournaments.

I agree that advertising is probably a waste of money and would even come off as pretty silly. However, doing a bit of market research and other forms of marketing could provide great avenues of growth for GW that they currently have no idea exist.

Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.

rigeld2 wrote:

Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.

Yeah, let's draw a line here between "market research" and "unsolicited feedback."

If I had an issue with someone personally, but hadn't spoken to them one on one, they might be aware I was angry at them via other people, friends of friends etc..

If I stood outside their house every day and shouted at them through the closed doors and windows, they might garner an even clearer picture of why I was unhappy with them, they may even glean enough to make some changes in an effort to placate me, but due to the limited and one way nature of the communication, may misunderstand what my issue is. They may even misunderstand to the point where they make matters worse.

It would only be once the person and I sat down face-to-face and had a proper interaction would there be any real hope of any positive resolution.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I agree with Backfire that word of mouth and demonstration are the two best methods for selling the games to new people. That is why it is worrying that GW have been cutting back on word of mouth and demonstration for several years. I believe this, combined with very high prices, especially of the rules and codexes, has caused their current problem.

As for GW listening to the current players, there are some signs that they are trying to respond although perhaps in a rather limited way. For instance the slipcase rulebook for 7th edition would have been exactly what a lot of people wanted if GW had sold the rules volume separately for a much lower price as an alternative to the full three volume set. GW got halfway to where people want them to be, and maybe in the fullness of time they will get all the way. This gives me hope that things will get turned around.

Thirded.

I'm all for seeing companies spend large sums of cash on advertising, since that's my industry. But I don't think a traditional advertising makes much sense for GW. Its products are for such a niche market that any advertising spend on their part will inevitably be very inefficient. I do think there are many possibilities for them with social media, etc.

Again, IMO their trouble started (in the U.S. at least) when they lost their ground game and their dominance at the local FLGS. And with the GW stores going to 1 employee, they can't possibly be running as many demos as they used to.

I miss the big GTs, but IMO what GW misses (even if they don't know it) is their RTT system. By supporting those little store events, they got people playing the game in stores, building enthusiasm for the products, and (importantly) showing it off to potential new customers. This may again be a U.S.-centric viewpoint, but I think it's relevant since the U.S. is a hugely important market in which they've been struggling).

 Azreal13 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.

Yeah, let's draw a line here between "market research" and "unsolicited feedback."

If I had an issue with someone personally, but hadn't spoken to them one on one, they might be aware I was angry at them via other people, friends of friends etc..

If I stood outside their house every day and shouted at them through the closed doors and windows, they might garner an even clearer picture of why I was unhappy with them, they may even glean enough to make some changes in an effort to placate me, but due to the limited and one way nature of the communication, may misunderstand what my issue is. They may even misunderstand to the point where they make matters worse.

It would only be once the person and I sat down face-to-face and had a proper interaction would there be any real hope of any positive resolution.

This. They may think they have their fingers on the pulse of gamers everywhere but their attitude and actions show that to be incorrect.
People's favorite hobby is going in and buying GW products? No mention of the assembly/painting/playing with - just purchasing.
The decreasing sales numbers show that GW has no idea what is actually going on right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm all for seeing companies spend large sums of cash on advertising, since that's my industry. But I don't think a traditional advertising makes much sense for GW. Its products are for such a niche market that any advertising spend on their part will inevitably be very inefficient. I do think there are many possibilities for them with social media, etc.

Not just "free" stuff like social media, but advertising for licensees. Licensing out apps, pc games, etc. and then you do advertising for them. Include references to what the thing is based on and you'll pull people in.
No one's saying run a commercial during the superbowl for 40k and/or fantasy... but to completely ignore any form of advertising is lunacy.

Backfire wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.

How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?

How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?

GW gets new players by good old-fashioned word-of-mouth. Every player in my gaming group has been 'recruited' this way: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army, demoes it again to some other new guy who gets excited etc. It's like a virus. Of course, prerequisite for this (quite effective) way of marketing is that there are existing players who are excited about the product. An army gathering dust abandoned in the closet does not attract anyone else to play the game.

People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best.

But there's another problem. With word of mouth you need that word to be positive. Now you have people like me, a 20+ year veteran, actively working against the company via word of mouth. So now, their only means of advertising is turning negative.

GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.

All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.

A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.

Whether this is because GW don't want their users exposed to alternatives, or because they think they stand separate to and above the rest of the tabletop game industry, I don't know. A bit of both, perhaps.

It is ironic as Games Day started off as a broad-based tabletop games show that included a lot of different stuff.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

It is ironic as Games Day started off as a broad-based tabletop games show that included a lot of different stuff.

This format is no longer available. Now GW is a narrow-based company putting all eggs into 40k.

But there's another problem. With word of mouth you need that word to be positive. Now you have people like me, a 20+ year veteran, actively working against the company via word of mouth. So now, their only means of advertising is turning negative.

this i find to be very true

 darefsky wrote:
GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.

All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.

A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.

If GW adopted this approach, they'd be booming. The strength of their IP is the only thing keeping them afloat. Any other TT game wouldve disappeared under management like GW's. They are sitting on a gold mine, but using it as a toilet.

 darefsky wrote:
GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.

All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.

A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.

It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.

Or the UK, or Germany.

Saldiven wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.

All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.

A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.

It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.

Daba wrote:Or the UK, or Germany.

Think about this for comparison. PP has a LIFE SIZE Man-o-War and they usually have a life size light Warjack. They have a huge open gaming hall, are running tournaments just about non-stop, plus fun "specialty" tournaments. a demo area for their games (from WarMachine to all of the board games they make) and a store that has lines reported over an hour long wait, info sessions with the game designers etc......Oh and future releases are on display....And they are all over the twitter and facebook (and apparently Pinterest, but I refuse on princinple to check that out). posting pics with customers, cosplayers and other awesome stuff.

As large as GW is, they should be dwarfing the other miniatures games folks. They should be second only to Wizards of the coast (or darn close to it).

Backfire wrote:
an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army

You forgot to mention the time between "get's excited" and "buys" wherein the consumer does some cost analysis and sees if the startup costs are manageable.

Backfire wrote:
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research".

"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I disagree. That comment is one of the most outlandish things a CEO could say to his investors, I would imagine (outside of his preamble opening). If he were doing market research of any kind, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have boasted that they didn't.

"Hey, our sales are tanking."

"What does the market want to buy?"

"They buy what we tell them to buy."

"Right."


I mean, I still get a laugh out of "We don't ask the market what it wants."

 puma713 wrote:

Backfire wrote:
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research".

"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I disagree. That comment is one of the most outlandish things a CEO could say to his investors, I would imagine (outside of his preamble opening). If he were doing market research of any kind, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have boasted that they didn't.

"Hey, our sales are tanking."

"What does the market want to buy?"

"They buy what we tell them to buy."

"Right."


I mean, I still get a laugh out of "We don't ask the market what it wants."

I agree with this sentiment to a good degree, but here is my thought on it. I know there are the redshirts who truly want to help promote the hobby, but seems to be that they are getting shafted by corporate. Perhaps this suggests a disconnect from corporate and those working in retail and that?

We know that GW are having serious trouble staffing their shops, so bad that it was cited as an important reason for their sales decline. This is despite GW hiring for attitude rather than skills and experience.

This indicates some serious divide between what corporate want, or think is possible, and what the people who are supposed to work on the front line actually can or are prepared to do.

 darefsky wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.

All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.

A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.

It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.

Daba wrote:Or the UK, or Germany.

Think about this for comparison. PP has a LIFE SIZE Man-o-War and they usually have a life size light Warjack. They have a huge open gaming hall, are running tournaments just about non-stop, plus fun "specialty" tournaments. a demo area for their games (from WarMachine to all of the board games they make) and a store that has lines reported over an hour long wait, info sessions with the game designers etc......Oh and future releases are on display....And they are all over the twitter and facebook (and apparently Pinterest, but I refuse on princinple to check that out). posting pics with customers, cosplayers and other awesome stuff.

As large as GW is, they should be dwarfing the other miniatures games folks. They should be second only to Wizards of the coast (or darn close to it).

Turns out they actually did have a lifesize marine:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/11400/356404.page#7120476