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 Elmir wrote:

Actually, I'm fine with a "brotherhood of psykers" not manifesting the same powers are full psykers. Their psychic mastery shows through in many other ways, not the least in the fact that they are the only ones able to manifest it somewhat reliably. The primaris is very silly indeed though. But that hardly matters if most squads get hammerhand by default, sometimes with more tossed in, like purifiers.


Oh... and I don't think the Aegis defence line will be that good for GKs. Don't forget that a GK dakka dread's best friend is a landing platform. I'll take that 3++ over and ADL anyday. Also, you might want to consider comms relay over quadgun for GKs...

Dakka dreads are very good, don't get me wrong -- but if psybolts are gone then they're demonstrably worse. Not pointless, but worse. It means no longer being able to glance out AV14, in an army that loses a lot with the absence of Jokeros.

The psychic stuff is a mixed bag. Yes sanctic is technically "their tree" but there's a reason nobody risks rolling doubles to take sanctic like they do with maelific -- the payoff isn't there. We'll see what units get which powers by default, but for an army in direct opposition to demons it would have been nice to see more variety. Heck, Demons got Maelific AND their God powers. Knights get very little relatively speaking.

I suppose I'm just used to getting excited when a new Codex is released. Not "Oh, I'm dropping $50 for less of everything."

 Auswin wrote:
Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.

Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.

Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.

I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?

So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.

My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
If you're an Inq player with a little GK sprinkled in, maybe

If you're a pure GK player, not so much

And we still dont know the final fate of psybolts

Even if you're pure GK, you get the privilege to pay $50 for no new units AND you still lose stuff (likely many upgrades, Mordrak and his ghost knights, Space Jesus...). Where's the upside to that?

Why would you pay for a blatant downgrade? At least other armies get something new along with the codex update. GK get a warlord table, a couple relics, and some numbers shuffled around. For fifty bucks. FIFTY! For one evening's worth of work. Truly, we are blessed!

Experiment 626 wrote:
So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"...

Because a single Lascannon shot is oh-so-effective at taking down armor in this edition...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.

Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.

Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.

I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?

So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.

My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.

So the solution is an over-costed, inferior Devastator squad? That doesn't sound like a good thing.

Psyfleman dreads were really good, they were also a much-needed force multiplier for an army that were at a severe weight of fire disadvantage. Not sure two TL lascannon shots on a dread suddenly fixes an army that's already extremely expensive in an edition where MSU mech is the standard in most lists.

I wouldn't be holding out hope that GK will suddenly be balanced vs. Demons -- not going to happen. If anything it seems they'll be tooled even more to only being able to deal with demons. Let's see if they can scratch Eldar or Tau before weight of fire decimates them on turn 3.

Experiment 626 wrote:

So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.

My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.

Well it doesn't look like you have the faintest idea of what's going on then.

GKs still have a crapload of stuff that will make it an uphill struggle against daemon. If you think the reason the psyfleman was spammed was only because it was good, you are sadly mistaken. It was the ONLY 24"+ weapons we could reliably get, outside of the pitifull "godhammer" landraider or the pitifull TL lascannon/ML dread you previously mentioned. They don't even fire enough shots to possibly bust a tank in 1 turn.

If psybolt is out, that's a huge blow to GKs... That psyfleman dread was the only real longe range Anti-Tank Grey knights had. If something is undercosted, up the points cost maybe? A much fairer price for psybolt would have indeed been 15-20 points for a vehicle... That would have made sense. But to cut it out completely leaves a huge hole in the arsenal of a GK player. It was very poorly thought out. But then again, very poorly thought out bests describes this copy-paste-cut codex that's coming out now. :(

To try and be a little more optimistic: I hope the relics are good. Sometimes relics can really make or break a list. A few good ones paired with some small tweaks could make the GK a good alpha strike army.

It's just disheartening to feel like there will only be one or two semi-decent GK builds.

 Elmir wrote:

Well it doesn't look like you have the faintest idea of what's going on then.

GKs still have a crapload of stuff that will make it an uphill struggle against daemon. If you think the reason the psyfleman was spammed was only because it was good, you are sadly mistaken. It was the ONLY 24"+ weapons we could reliably get, outside of the pitifull "godhammer" landraider or the pitifull TL lascannon/ML dread you previously mentioned. They don't even fire enough shots to possibly bust a tank in 1 turn.

If psybolt is out, that's a huge blow to GKs... That psyfleman dread was the only real longe range Anti-Tank Grey knights had. If something is undercosted, up the points cost maybe? A much fairer price for psybolt would have indeed been 15-20 points for a vehicle... That would have made sense. But to cut it out completely leaves a huge hole in the arsenal of a GK player. It was very poorly thought out. But then again, very poorly thought out bests describes this copy-paste-cut codex that's coming out now. :(

To add, they also lost the ability to cause explosion results in 7E, thus making the S8 Ap4 shots only reliable at hull point stripping and only able to glance Land Raiders. Otherwise, there's a great limit on how GK now can handle a Land Raider without the Vindicare Assassin, Monkeys with Lascannons, or cheap Melta Acolytes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:


Nope, I stand by the screeching monkey flinging poo comparison. Fact is that not everyone share the same idea of how the game works or enjoys it the same way. Generally those people are open to reasonable discource that doesn't come off as petulant and whiney. You seem honestly to be more upset by your local community than 40k in general. Take it up with them. Personally Orks have been good. Space Wolves have been good. I think pure GK are going to be good. Do both Orks and Space Wolves have supplements that make them better? Yep. But they are still good codexes.

I'm not "pro-gw" outside of enjoying playing their games. I am against some of their business practices. My personal purchasing of GW has waned heavily since 5th edition. I play other games now that I enjoy quite a bit. But I still enjoy 40k. Your issues seem to be cost and army building related. One I empathize with and would weigh the fun I would get from the purchase against the cost. The other though is a local issue and you should attempt to work on it locally.

And with that I'm off work and no longer need to be entertained. Thank you sir

Orks, good? Deleted characters and armies. Space Wolves good? Deleted characters and armies AND added stupid models that defy the fluff and show placation towards the lowest common denominator. Both had price increases. Please explain this "good". There's a difference between liking and good. Measurable value decreases are not good. Supplements to make them better? You're defending paying more money to get back what you had? $100 to play an army? On what level of irrationality is this? You're talking about the complete entry cost into almost any other game ($100) for the rules to just continue playing an army. Other game companies do not do this as it would be death to their brand. And the financials of GW all point to this.

None of this is flinging poo. I'm pointing to literal facts: bad finances, observable and measurable decreasing value, the invalidation of models and complete armies. The one solace is paying more money to earn the ability to keep playing the same army the exact same way. I see no single logical reason to be "excited" about this.

Oh, and stop calling me a "monkey", please. Rule #1. Attack the argument, not the person.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.

Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.

Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.

I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?

So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon?

lol nope, they have not.
And theres a reason why.

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:
So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!

Urgh..
1) We hardly know anything except that the Codex will be pure Grey Knights.
2) Psybolt ammunition, Storm Shields, where are you getting your information?
3) Necrons? That is completely "untrue" and there is nothing to suggest they are next. Nevertheless they wouldn't release three Marine-codices in a row when there are still two Xenos-armies left.

Maybe we can wait a week before calling the end of the world as we know it?

Pure grey knights is the end of the world for those of us who played henchmen lists. I hadn't really been paying attention, but unless I missed some labrythine combination of data slates, codexi, unbound craziness and so on there isn't anyway to run a henchman army in storm ravens. Codex Inquistion has no troops and only 3 elites, right? So my favorite army of the last two years is literally gone. It was a niche build I suppose, but it still pisses me off. A lot. I put a ton of modeling love into that build.

You can use the Inquisitorial Detachment!
Mandatory: 1 HQ
Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Elites

But yes, they lost Stormravens as Dedicated Transport.
You still have 7 other DT's and can use another Detachment to gain a Stormraven.
I wouldn't call that 'craziness'

Kangodo wrote:

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:
So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!

Urgh..
1) We hardly know anything except that the Codex will be pure Grey Knights.
2) Psybolt ammunition, Storm Shields, where are you getting your information?
3) Necrons? That is completely "untrue" and there is nothing to suggest they are next. Nevertheless they wouldn't release three Marine-codices in a row when there are still two Xenos-armies left.

Maybe we can wait a week before calling the end of the world as we know it?

We dont know that they wouldnt release 3 marine books in a row. Blood angels would be the next logical step, since they were the last codex that actually LOST things in the 7th ed FAQ. But if necrons and/or dark eldar come out before blood angels (making 3 books that got updated TWICE before a new angels dex) i will be one of the many people on this forum starting a riot at GW headquarters.

But if those rumors of de/ba box set are true it'd be worth the wait

thraxdown wrote:
But if those rumors of de/ba box set are true it'd be worth the wait

Unlikely. Sanctus reach was a summer only deal. If we see a DE/BA box set, itll mean another 9+ months before we get either of those two updates.

Gw's been dropping a codex a month lately, and we only have Dark eldar, Blood Angels, and Necrons to go ? At this rate we should be complaining about how bad the new Blood Angel's codex is before years end

I've just skimmed through the WD articles and I see no mention of Psybolt ammo.

Any particular reason people think it's going to be dropped ? Isn't it pretty much a staple of GK armies ?

GW is following the MotG format. With every new edition armys/decks and models/cards will be invalidated. With each new edition you'll have to spend between $100 & $200. Personally i think that's why they've been leaning towards MCs and flyers. That way the big new thing you must buy will net them big bucks.

 Hulksmash wrote:

All codex updates are basically errata with an extra unit or two. It's been that way since 3rd edition. And it's less than 2/3's a cost increase for the actual codex. Or the same if you purchase the digital edition. Losing units sucks and spreading stuff out over several publications sucks. No question. However your blowing it out of proportion.

This had to be pointed out. This is one of the poorest arguments I have come across in a long time on these forums. You claim all updates are merely errata plus the bonus of new units, in defense of a book we know has in fact not only failed to gain new units, but has lost around 9.....NINE! Worse yet you point this fact out yourself in the same breath lol.

It's also incredible your actually telling players that the cost to maintain their army is: "less than 2/3's a cost increase for the actual codex" and "your blowing it out of proportion."

If ever there was justification for calling someone out on White Knighting or fanboy behavior...

Nope, I stand by the screeching monkey flinging poo comparison.

I can honestly say as a neutral party that I find your posts MUCH more annoying then his: "just wait and see!..." Its also poor form to meekishly refer to him as a Gak tossing simian. Seriously dude... If you don't like his opinions that much, hit ignore. Dancing around rule number 1 is bad form.

And with that I'm off work and no longer need to be entertained. Thank you sir

Nanananabooboo I got the last word? Seriously?

Emphasis Mine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Pure grey knights is the end of the world for those of us who played henchmen lists. I hadn't really been paying attention, but unless I missed some labrythine combination of data slates, codexi, unbound craziness and so on there isn't anyway to run a henchman army in storm ravens. Codex Inquistion has no troops and only 3 elites, right? So my favorite army of the last two years is literally gone. It was a niche build I suppose, but it still pisses me off. A lot. I put a ton of modeling love into that build.

Sorry man, I am fine with you using your 5th ed book anytime we get a game in.

 adamsouza wrote:
I've just skimmed through the WD articles and I see no mention of Psybolt ammo.

Any particular reason people think it's going to be dropped ? Isn't it pretty much a staple of GK armies ?

It wasn't listed as a possible upgrade on any unit in the GK army builder that was accidentally included in the SW e-codex. So unless that was still incomplete or psybolts are standard for some units, they appear to be gone.

I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated.

Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.

I hope every rumour is true for greyknights. hope they get the tyranid treatment.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated.

Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.

I don't get this mentality. The last codex that was truly terribad was the Nid one. All others have been at worst, just thoroughly mediocre.

There's just no escaping that this is a horrifically reduced value product.. Surprises me because I thought gk were really popular? The fact that they got utterly smashed in their white dwarf appearance isn't great either... Although maybe that was just unlucky.

I also don't get why deep striking helps? Try that going first against a tau gun line and you will be tabled by turn 2 IF you get lucky with invulnerable saves.

I've bought the book as have been with gk since the deamonhunters days, but will return it just to make a point. The rumours about pulling visions indicate that GW May at least be thinking about those sales figures....

Brutishcard wrote:

I also don't get why deep striking helps? Try that going first against a tau gun line and you will be tabled by turn 2 IF you get lucky with invulnerable saves.

It doesn't, not really. It feels like a lot of people are saying the answer will be mass deep striking, but if you've played Grey Knights then you know that isn't the answer.

By nature deep striking is a huge risk-reward thing, but the reward is normally that you're dropping in a unit with significant firepower. Unless purifiers are getting access to combi weapons (which they wont) then dropping in a bunch of power armor marines with storm bolters and psycannons scares nobody. Oh, they have a nerfed version of battle focus? Yeah, that wont help.

It's like the GK are being positioned as a huge alpha strike army with nothing scary to back it up. Heck, Deathwing terminators are substantially better than GK termies in every way -- and that's just one part of the DA codex, not the entire army's bread and butter.

This is the most lackluster leadup to a true hardback codex I can remember. Nothing is close to this. Nids lost some things, but over time the army isn't quite as bad as the initial freakout pegged it to be. I'll see what happens, but I fail to see what could possibly be in those pages to make up for an armywide reduction in anything useful. Everything the Grey Knights can do another army can do better. Wolves came in and ate their lunch as being a better anti-psyker unit, better alpha strike with drop pods, better diversity, a new flier and they got their own psychic table to boot.

I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..

Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!

Grey Knights are currently the "Jack of all trades, master of none." People like to say we're the masters of close combat, but we don't have an effective counter to Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators. They ignore all our armour saves, and if we field hammers to ignore their armour, they'll still have a 3++ while our Terminators only have a 5++. If our Terminators take the Nemesis Force Sword then they get a 4++ while the enemy Terminators are using their 2+.

Tau out shoots us, and murders us in their ridiculous overwatch. Eldar always move,shoot, and move again making them impossible to assault as they whittle down our forces.

Orks and Tyranids can field tarpits big enough that even perfect rolls won't eat through them before the game ends.

Drop Pods are infinitely better than our deepstrike options.

Etc.

The only way to make Deepstriking viable for the Grey Knights is if they can assault the turn they come in and have reduced scatter.

Yeah deep striking is not the answer. Driving around in three land raiders would be more effective. Although you would need 10 land raiders to provide the circa 20 las cannon shots it takes to kill a riptide.

Maybe I'm just hung up on playing without allies... But thing is even with that, you would have to have a serious reason for taking gk as, like you say, most armies can do so much better. I hope this release bombs, but somehow I don't think it will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..

Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!

So true! That said the codex back then was a beauty. Great fluff, badass art and the modelling section was one of the best of any codex ever..

except very few people played it because it was such a specialist army.

The last GK codex actually made them interesting and viable as a primary army choice.

We also got a lot of new units.

This codex adds nothing new and only takes things away.

Brutishcard wrote:
Yeah deep striking is not the answer. Driving around in three land raiders would be more effective. Although you would need 10 land raiders to provide the circa 20 las cannon shots it takes to kill a riptide.

Maybe I'm just hung up on playing without allies... But thing is even with that, you would have to have a serious reason for taking gk as, like you say, most armies can do so much better. I hope this release bombs, but somehow I don't think it will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..

Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!

So true! That said the codex back then was a beauty. Great fluff, badass art and the modelling section was one of the best of any codex ever..

That really seems to be what GW is going for. They basically said "Yeh, we stole half your units for e-books, but we gave you more fluff... So be happy about it."

 Sir Arun wrote:
except very few people played it because it was such a specialist army.

The last GK codex actually made them interesting and viable as a primary army choice.

We also got a lot of new units.

This codex adds nothing new and only takes things away.

Oh I completely agree! You'll notice I didn't include the rules in my list of good things! Haha.

I am definitely not happy with more fluff and less rules. Unless it involves Hyperion and is written by ADB.