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I keep having this argument with people at my FLGS that a blast weapon on the third floor of a ruin does not hit models on the ground because they are underneath the template.

I looked through the book but I can't find the section that deals with blast/template weapons and elevation.

Please point me in the right direction, and thank you.

mrfantastical wrote:
I keep having this argument with people at my FLGS that a blast weapon on the third floor of a ruin does not hit models on the ground because they are underneath the template.

I looked through the book but I can't find the section that deals with blast/template weapons and elevation.

Please point me in the right direction, and thank you.

You won't find it.
Templates and Blast Markers hit everything underneath them, there is nothing to say that you choose a level.

Edit: In fact, if you look under the rules for Blast Weapons and Templates, you'll see that they say that they hit everything under them.

This is an on going debate and the BRB doesn't provide any clarification. I've heard it interpreted two ways:

1. Templates and blast markers hit everything underneath them, regardless of intervening floors of a building.

2. Templates and blast markers hit everything THAT YOU CAN SEE under them. Therefore, if you place the marker on the third level and can't see any targets on the second or ground level due to the floors blocking LoS, then those models can't be hit.

Our group is still playing 6th ed rules.

and our group is using the number 2 option, cause it makes alot more sense than number 1.

While option 2 makes the most sense, the store around here uses interpretation 1, as it doesn't say you have to be able to see them under the Template/Blast Marker.

It kinda does, although some people pass that off as fluff or an inconsequential peice of abstraction.

 Ond Angel wrote:
While option 2 makes the most sense, the store around here uses interpretation 1, as it doesn't say you have to be able to see them under the Template/Blast Marker.

Makes it hard to count models under the marker if you can't see them.

 eluxir wrote:
This is an on going debate and the BRB doesn't provide any clarification. I've heard it interpreted two ways:

1. Templates and blast markers hit everything underneath them, regardless of intervening floors of a building.

2. Templates and blast markers hit everything THAT YOU CAN SEE under them. Therefore, if you place the marker on the third level and can't see any targets on the second or ground level due to the floors blocking LoS, then those models can't be hit.

Our group is still playing 6th ed rules.

I don't think there is a debate for 7th: it's going to be 1.

6th Ed rules said you had to pick a level, and that was clear and simple. Removal of these rules are very questionable indeed....

Fragile wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:
While option 2 makes the most sense, the store around here uses interpretation 1, as it doesn't say you have to be able to see them under the Template/Blast Marker.

Makes it hard to count models under the marker if you can't see them.

My templates are translucent, but not transparent, i can't actually see through them at all, how do i count then?

I use option number one when I play. I don't think artilery shells stop when they hit the floor they blow up through it.

In regards to blast templates and flamers: Are you able to choose a level they hit? I.E 3 floors with ceilings, can you choose to hit floor 2 if you can see the target through the window but not from directly above as the ceiling is in the way?

You were forced into such a choice in 6th, but now you place the Template however you choose and the blast above.

So the template could be placed above only the 2nd LvL and hit everything underneath (2nd and 1st level)

This is stoopit...I mean really stoopit.

You choose a model that is within direct line of sight of the shooter. You center of the blast over the model. if the blast is 6 inches above the model, or 6 feet, everything underneath is hit, even if it's on a different level and out of sight of the blast or the shooter. You just need LoS on the initial target model.

 deviantduck wrote:
You choose a model that is within direct line of sight of the shooter. You center of the blast over the model. if the blast is 6 inches above the model, or 6 feet, everything underneath is hit, even if it's on a different level and out of sight of the blast or the shooter. You just need LoS on the initial target model.

but what about 1mm above the model?

for example, there are 10 models in a ruin, all the entire unit are visible from the right hand side through the windows.
2 models are on the top level.
4 models are on the middle level, completely under cover of the top level.
4 models are on the bottom level , completely under cover of the middle level.

See example:

o o
---------
o o o o
---------
o o o o
---------

John Doe fires a blast template and can see the model on the ground floor through the right window, is John forced to place the blast template directly above that model at the top level ( despite it being completely obscured by the top level) or can he ignore the top 2 and place it on the bottom as he has line of sight.

@Mrfantastical, not sure if you're directing that at me mate but what is really stupid is not asking questions when you are unsure of something. There was a point where you didn't know this rule so keep your "stoop its" or say something that is actually funny/ constructive.

 Wilson wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You choose a model that is within direct line of sight of the shooter. You center of the blast over the model. if the blast is 6 inches above the model, or 6 feet, everything underneath is hit, even if it's on a different level and out of sight of the blast or the shooter. You just need LoS on the initial target model.

but what about 1mm above the model?

for example, there are 10 models in a ruin, all the entire unit are visible from the right hand side through the windows.
2 models are on the top level.
4 models are on the middle level, completely under cover of the top level.
4 models are on the bottom level , completely under cover of the middle level.

See example:

o o
---------
o o o o
---------
o o o o
---------

John Doe fires a blast template and can see the model on the ground floor through the right window, is John forced to place the blast template directly above that model at the top level ( despite it being completely obscured by the top level) or can he ignore the top 2 and place it on the bottom as he has line of sight.

@Mrfantastical, not sure if you're directing that at me mate but what is really stupid is not asking questions when you are unsure of something. There was a point where you didn't know this rule so keep your "stoop its" or say something that is actually funny/ constructive.

I'm not calling anyone stoopit, and I apologize if that's how it came out. I'm calling the lack of clear rules on blast weapons and elevation stoopit. This wasn't an issue in the previous 2 editions, but now you suddenly have cylinder explosions. I know this is an oversight, but already players are beginning to capitalize, on a really silly, silly situation,

mrfantastical wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You choose a model that is within direct line of sight of the shooter. You center of the blast over the model. if the blast is 6 inches above the model, or 6 feet, everything underneath is hit, even if it's on a different level and out of sight of the blast or the shooter. You just need LoS on the initial target model.

but what about 1mm above the model?

for example, there are 10 models in a ruin, all the entire unit are visible from the right hand side through the windows.
2 models are on the top level.
4 models are on the middle level, completely under cover of the top level.
4 models are on the bottom level , completely under cover of the middle level.

See example:

o o
---------
o o o o
---------
o o o o
---------

John Doe fires a blast template and can see the model on the ground floor through the right window, is John forced to place the blast template directly above that model at the top level ( despite it being completely obscured by the top level) or can he ignore the top 2 and place it on the bottom as he has line of sight.

@Mrfantastical, not sure if you're directing that at me mate but what is really stupid is not asking questions when you are unsure of something. There was a point where you didn't know this rule so keep your "stoop its" or say something that is actually funny/ constructive.

I'm not calling anyone stoopit, and I apologize if that's how it came out. I'm calling the lack of clear rules on blast weapons and elevation stoopit. This wasn't an issue in the previous 2 editions, but now you suddenly have cylinder explosions. I know this is an oversight, but already players are beginning to capitalize, on a really silly, silly situation,

My bad man.The internet is a tough place to be sometimes! It's very stoopit for sure, god know's why they took it out and do not give people the answers when they email/call about it. FAQ's are probably the only thing that bum me about the hobby. that and people who play the game so seriously that they forget to have fun.

It's a 'blast', an explosion, a big badaboom - everyone should get some of it. The new rules make more sense and I don't believe they were simply an oversight.

 xlDuke wrote:
It's a 'blast', an explosion, a big badaboom - everyone should get some of it. The new rules make more sense and I don't believe they were simply an oversight.

So a grenade going off 10 floors above you should have the potential to kill you?

No, it's not "realistic" in any way. It doesn't make sense. It is a poor change.

mrfantastical wrote:
I'm not calling anyone stoopit, and I apologize if that's how it came out. I'm calling the lack of clear rules on blast weapons and elevation stoopit. This wasn't an issue in the previous 2 editions, but now you suddenly have cylinder explosions. I know this is an oversight, but already players are beginning to capitalize, on a really silly, silly situation,

The "cylinder explosions" were always there, just not for ruins.

If a unit was on the edge of a buildings roof, and another unit were directly below them on the ground, a single Blast marker would have been able to hit both units in 6th ed as well as 7th ed.


In the pic below, Both models in Unit A would be hit, and both models in unit B would be hit. This is true in 7th ed, and it was true in 6th ed.

The same goes for hill crests and walls in both editions.

The only thing from 6th that changed with 7th was the Ruins rules about blast markers.

Don't they have those 3D templates? It forms a sphere, or half of one? Wouldn't that work the same for these?

The new rule book keeps mentioning 'official Citadel scenery' as a point of reference, they don't make any 10 storey buildings (and I doubt anyone plays on any) so you taking the argument to the extreme is besides the point. Anyway, it's a grenade of the future so why shouldn't it harm somebody on the floor above/below if what they are hiding in is an old ruined building.

The Shokk Attack Gun for example surely wouldn't just blow up one floor of a building and leave those above and below unscathed?

I agree it isn't a perfect ruleset, perhaps different types of blasts have different effects such as assault blasts only working on one level, heavy blasts work up and down one level and ordnance destroys everything close enough.

rigeld2 wrote:

 xlDuke wrote:
It's a 'blast', an explosion, a big badaboom - everyone should get some of it. The new rules make more sense and I don't believe they were simply an oversight.

So a grenade going off 10 floors above you should have the potential to kill you?

No, it's not "realistic" in any way. It doesn't make sense. It is a poor change.

Maybe the grenade 10 floors up kills the marine on the top level and his body falls and crushes the marine on the ground floor? or a giant chunk of plascrete? or bees?

You really can't bring realism into it or the tank firing the blast weapon could hit the marine from the parking lot across the street outside in front of the FLGS.

 xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote:
Don't they have those 3D templates? It forms a sphere, or half of one? Wouldn't that work the same for these?

What 3D templates?

xXWeaponPrimeXx,
and how would we use them?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote:
Don't they have those 3D templates? It forms a sphere, or half of one? Wouldn't that work the same for these?

What 3D templates?

This.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2009/3/30/0b51ea180b07c8d621c80a4d8bf8b82d_12304.jpg


That is the same size as the small template isn't it? So couldn't you use it as such?

Lets say you don't have one. You take the small (or large template) and place it over the models to determine the width of the attack, then you turn it on its side to determine its depth. Right?

It makes sense. No explosion creates a perfect column of destruction through floors, but rather a somewhat spherical blast.

 xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote:
Don't they have those 3D templates? It forms a sphere, or half of one? Wouldn't that work the same for these?

What 3D templates?

This.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2009/3/30/0b51ea180b07c8d621c80a4d8bf8b82d_12304.jpg


That is the same size as the small template isn't it? So couldn't you use it as such?

Lets say you don't have one. You take the small (or large template) and place it over the models to determine the width of the attack, then you turn it on its side to determine its depth. Right?

It makes sense. No explosion creates a perfect column of destruction through floors, but rather a somewhat spherical blast.

That is not a 3D blast marker, that is a special edition Webway portal.

And the rules tell us that anything under the marker is hit, so it is a column/cylinder.

Okay, but then doesn't the second half of my post work?

 xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote:
Okay, but then doesn't the second half of my post work?

No, because the rules do not tell us to measure in 3 dimensions.

The rules tell us that anything under the marker is hit.

Look at the pic I posted, that is the RAW. both marines were hit in Unit A and both marines were hit in Unit B.

I know. I saw it. And I get it.

But if you can move up in a building, you are playing (and subsequently measuring) in three dimensions. Its been in 3 dimensions since city fight added top armor back in the day.

I just think using the blast template for horizontal and vertical measurement is the best way to go. Its the most feasible.

But then, to each their own.

The problem is execution:
If we used a sphere we would need to hold it in position to confirm if models where within the radius created by said sphere.
That would mean two solid objects occupying the same space at the same time....