Warmachine and WH 40K

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**prplehippo**

I only played a few games of WM when I worked for Privateer, on their "First Friday" thing, it was OK.

I had fun but I'm not much of a "gamer", I prefer to paint models. Even some of the staff described Warmahordes as "Magic the Gathering with miniatures" but the games I did play were fun.

That being said, I'm getting really sick and tired of spending so much time cleaning up PP models, and the amount of green stuff I have to use to fill gaps is absurd.

Their metals are hit and miss, most of them are OK (except the Rhinodon, Ugh) but their plastic kits and resin kits are just awful.

**nobody**

MWHistorian wrote:
Leth wrote:
I have tried warmachine and I think it is a fantastic game. That said it is nor for me.

One of my biggest problems was that there was too much diversity in stats model to model.
;
Even if just getting introduced to a unit in 40k I can just look at the stats and have a solid idea of the numbers involved. There is a fixed list of abilities that I need to know for the most part in the main rulebook, and its not individual to each unit. Could I learn them all? Sure, but it was daunting to someone trying to get into it.

Also pg.5 being a license to be an donkey-cave kinda killed it for me. As people took it literally.

You mean the "Page 5" that says:
"Most importantly- and let's state this loud and clear for the record - Page 5 is not permission to be a 'donkey cave' in the name of competition. It's not a shield to hide behind when you're playing like a sissified cheesball running down the clock, gaming in scenario, or rules lawyering your hapless opponent to death. Page 5 doesn't discriminate between genders. And Page 5 is never, ever, EVER an liscence to diminish another player so you can inflate your own vertically challenged self esteem. Remember, we all come here to battle out of common love. Respect Page 5. Respect each other."

You mean, that Page 5? That gives you liscence to be a donkey cave?

To be fair, if the poster had tried in MKI that pg 5 WAS different and certainly encouraged donkey cave behavior.

That being said, I didn't like MKI, but I do enjoy MKII.

**DanielBeaver**

I've been playing Warmhordes a bit more often lately. It's fun, but it certainly has a different feel than 40k, with much more emphasis on ability combos and precise positional play (since models block movement and LOS, they act sort of like terrain). It's definitely not a "replacement". I like the larger scope and emphasis on equipment customization 40k has.

**Elemental**

Leth wrote:
Whatever the page was, People used it as a shield regardless of what it said. I just was not having fun and someone said something about page 5.

Also sorry for stating my opinion and experiences. Everytime I think about getting back into (thanks article on 3++) I see Warmachine players attacking people for liking 40k, or indirectly insulting them and I remember why I got out of it.

Its like the prius owners of the minature world.

I'm a pretty big WM fanboy, and yeah, the evangelists make me wince as well.

**Vertrucio**

There are elitists or negative people for everything.

From the sheer size of the 40k fanbase, there's more in the 40k base, or ex-40k base. In fact, the worst people I know that play WM came over from 40k after people stopped playing against them.

In the WM community, eventually people stop playing with those people too.

My biggest problem with Warmachine right now is that players use even less terrain in the game than 40k or WHFB. This is due to all the rules being too extreme in effect, that terrain rules either extremely punish you, or they extremely help you or your opponent because you happen to have a rule that ignores it.

Even 7th edition for 40k seems to have some rules that make terrain more usable without being detrimental.

I still love WM, and I loved 40K's space fantasy setting. Now, it's hard for me to get motivated to play either game.

**Musashi363**

In WM, if you are running up the middle and fighting in large blocks...you're doing it wrong.

**Da Boss**

That really depends on the army you're running.
Several troll builds rely on a brick of infantry, for example.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Vertrucio wrote:
There are elitists or negative people for everything.

From the sheer size of the 40k fanbase, there's more in the 40k base, or ex-40k base. In fact, the worst people I know that play WM came over from 40k after people stopped playing against them.

In the WM community, eventually people stop playing with those people too.

My biggest problem with Warmachine right now is that players use even less terrain in the game than 40k or WHFB. This is due to all the rules being too extreme in effect, that terrain rules either extremely punish you, or they extremely help you or your opponent because you happen to have a rule that ignores it.

Even 7th edition for 40k seems to have some rules that make terrain more usable without being detrimental.

I still love WM, and I loved 40K's space fantasy setting. Now, it's hard for me to get motivated to play either game.

This! I have a circle force but it's never been used as the terrain and look of a game is something really enjoy! It just appears from the outside that terrain is an irritation for many.

**Las**

The whole page 5 thing was the final nail in the coffin of me ever trying out warmachine. Any company that would brazenly publish such a sexist and homophobic piece of writing should not be tolerated in wargaming. I don't care if it was "tongue in cheek" or toned down in MKII, in a culture that struggles to attract participants other than straight white males we can't afford to attack gamers for being "sissies" and not having balls.

**frozenwastes**

You're seeing sexism where there isn't any. The president of the company is Sherry Yeary and their HQ is in one of the most forward thinking places in the US, and from what I can tell, they fit right in.

**Grimtuff**

frozenwastes wrote:
You're seeing sexism where there isn't any. The president of the company is Sherry Yeary and their HQ is in one of the most forward thinking places in the US, and from what I can tell, they fit right in.

I'm curious to know where the supposed homophobia is too.

Nothing of any sort on page 5....
No mention of "sissies". It says WUSSIES.

**gunslingerpro**

OP, Warmachine can be hard to roll back into suddenly. Because of the nature of my work, I sometimes find a don't get games in for months at a time. As such, my skills get less sharp, and I forget how to counter certain things or run certain units to their max ability. With a game that has such tactical flexibility, it can really be a detriment to one's enjoyment sometimes.

I find throwing out some of the crazy scenarios from the leagues or the ones folks create online can be a great way to get your mind back into shape. Keeps it fresh, less just caster kill etc.

Also, if you played WM cause you weren't enjoying 40k, remember what you enjoyed about it. If you are currently enjoying 40k, ask yourself what is making this better than WM currently.

Jumping back and forth as you tire of one is a great way to keep both fresh and fun.

**Deadnight**

Las wrote:
The whole page 5 thing was the final nail in the coffin of me ever trying out warmachine. Any company that would brazenly publish such a sexist and homophobic piece of writing should not be tolerated in wargaming. I don't care if it was "tongue in cheek" or toned down in MKII, in a culture that struggles to attract participants other than straight white males we can't afford to attack gamers for being "sissies" and not having balls.

It's neither sexist, nor homophobic. 'Having a pair' means standing up for yourself. Frankly, everything in page 5 is a positive, assertive and empowering message that everyone (whether male, female, gay or straight, or whatever else) can stand behind and be proud of. It means giving the best, holding nothing back, always seeking to push on and take on the big dogs, rather than noobstalking, and essentially, being as good as you can be. It means NOT being an asshat about things. It's very, very specific. Page 5 is not ever about being a knob to your opponent. It's about seeing them as an equal, and treating them with that level of mutual respect. In fact, I've never seen any of my opponents display any sexist or homophobic behaviours or attitudes.

And funnily enough, I've seen a lot more girls play and enjoy warmachine/hordes than I've ever seen involved in 40k. If anything, that's a lot more telling.

**Las**

frozenwastes wrote:
You're seeing sexism where there isn't any. The president of the company is Sherry Yeary and their HQ is in one of the most forward thinking places in the US, and from what I can tell, they fit right in.

"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

**Da Boss**

Las, I assume you don't play 40K then?

**Las**

Warning: Not suitable for wussies!

Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you cry when you lose, get lost -- you're going to lose. If it hurts your fragile sensibilities to see your favorite character get pounded unmercifully by a rapid succession of no-holds-barred iron fury, you'd better look the other way. If you've ever whined the words, "That's too powerful," then put the book down slowly and walk away before making eye contact with anyone or they'll realize your voice hasn't changed yet.

This game is about aggression. This is the game of metal-on-metal combat. This is fuel-injected power hopped up on steroids. This is WARMACHINE -- the battles game that kicks so much ass we have to use all capital letters.

We didn't set out to reinvent the wheel with this game -- we just armor plated it, covered it in spikes, and rolled it over your grandma's house.

WARMACHINE is simple. It's easy to learn, has no reference charts, no heavy arithmetic, and doesn't require constant trips to the rulebook. At the same time, WARMACHINE possesses deep strategy. The ability to unlock combinations of abilities and spells and maneuvers is practically limitless. For every perfect strategy, there is a foil. For every immovable object, there is an unstoppable force. Just when you think you've got it all worked out, you'll be blindsided by something you never saw before. The more you dig, the more you'll find.

WARMACHINE favors the aggressor. You've got to throw the first punch if you want to land on top! Too many games set players up to be timid. Games drag out with little action because the game favors defensive strategies. Players park their soldiers behind walls like old ladies hiding from a loud noise.

Not in WARMACHINE! If you want your opponent to come to you, you're going to get steamrolled. You've got to have balls to play this game! You've got to charge your opponent and hang it all out there! You've got to break his formations. You've got to be relentless with your onslaught. You have to go for the jugular and latch on like a rabid dog that hasn't eaten in days. Anything less and you'll be hamburger.

You're playing with power now. Don't be afraid! Few things are more satisfying than slamming your opponent's warjack into a unit of soldiers and watching them fall like bowling pins! (We call this jack bowling.) Try picking up an enemy warcaster (with a warjack, of course) and throwing it across the battlefield! It's almost more fun than you should be allowed to have with miniatures game.

The miniatures of WARMACHINE deliver on every level that the game does. These warjacks radiate power! We're pouring so much metal into these things that at our current rate, we'll deplete the world of pewter by 2006. And these things were made for modeling. The incredible detail and expert sculpting will create one of the most enjoyable painting experiences you've ever had.

This is a new era in tabletop miniatures wargaming. This is a game made for you, by people like you. It's not a load of sterilized mass market drek designed by a room of corporate meatplow. This is raw. This is brutal. This is WARMACHINE.

So play like you've got a pair, or put down the metal and go find something made of plastic.

Really.

Da Boss wrote:
Las, I assume you don't play 40K then?

40k has a lot of issues with its depiction of women, but to my knowledge they have never publicized anything quite like that.

**frozenwastes**

Las wrote:
"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

Except for you know... she's actually a woman herself and runs the business.

One thing I have learned though is that when people get on a moral high horse and start crusading, facts cease to matter. So do your thing and we'll all keep your self righteousness in mind while you do.

**Las**

frozenwastes wrote:
Las wrote:
"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

Except for you know... she's actually a woman herself and runs the business.

One thing I have learned though is that when people get on a moral high horse and start crusading, facts cease to matter. So do your thing and we'll all keep your self righteousness in mind while you do.

Being a woman doesn't exempt you from being able to propagate sexism. Look at the MKI page 5 text and tell me there's nothing wrong with it.

**Grimtuff**

Las wrote:

"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fething what." -Stephen Fry.

I can do this too.

**frozenwastes**

Las wrote:
Being a woman doesn't exempt you from being able to propagate sexism. Look at the MKI page 5 text and tell me there's nothing wrong with it.

What I find wrong is that you failed to provide a reference for your source. Including the year of publication. You're trying to pass off the old page five as if its the current page five.

Very dishonest.

**Las**

frozenwastes wrote:
Las wrote:
Being a woman doesn't exempt you from being able to propagate sexism. Look at the MKI page 5 text and tell me there's nothing wrong with it.

What I find wrong is that you failed to provide a reference for your source. Including the year of publication. You're trying to pass off the old page five as if its the current page five.

Very dishonest.

No I'm not. I stated that it was the MKI page 5.

**Grimtuff**

Las wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
Las wrote:
Being a woman doesn't exempt you from being able to propagate sexism. Look at the MKI page 5 text and tell me there's nothing wrong with it.

What I find wrong is that you failed to provide a reference for your source. Including the year of publication. You're trying to pass off the old page five as if its the current page five.

Very dishonest.

No I'm not. I stated that it was the MKI page 5.

Actually you didn't. You implied it in your first post but failed to clarify anywhere or in subsequent posts.

Las wrote:
The whole page 5 thing was the final nail in the coffin of me ever trying out warmachine. Any company that would brazenly publish such a sexist and homophobic piece of writing should not be tolerated in wargaming. I don't care if it was "tongue in cheek" or toned down in MKII, in a culture that struggles to attract participants other than straight white males we can't afford to attack gamers for being "sissies" and not having balls.

I had to dig into my MK1 book to see exactly what you were on about (and even then I missed it as it's not exactly obvious) as nothing of the sort exists in the MK2 copy.

**frozenwastes**

I must be reading a different post. Las just quotes it and go "really".

Do I think the old page 5 is silly? Yeah. It's clearly going after a juvenile teen age boy market. They tightened things up when they did the remix book. And Las not caring that it was tongue in cheek? That just shows he's predisposed to interpreting it in the wrong way. It is tongue in cheek, so any consideration of the text that ignores that is factually incorrect at its basis. Like if you interpret a poem as a technical document or as history. Ignoring the nature of the literature pretty much garauntees misinterpretation.

Do I find it sexist or homophobic? Not really.

Do I find 40k's token usage of cultures (these space marines are norse and these ones are mongols!) to be racist? Not really.

I'm not very good at being a crusader who sees injustice in every game product though.

**Las**

Las wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
Las wrote:
"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

Except for you know... she's actually a woman herself and runs the business.

One thing I have learned though is that when people get on a moral high horse and start crusading, facts cease to matter. So do your thing and we'll all keep your self righteousness in mind while you do.

Being a woman doesn't exempt you from being able to propagate sexism. Look at the MKI page 5 text and tell me there's nothing wrong with it.

Notice that this post has not been edited and that you both have quoted it.

frozenwastes wrote:
I must be reading a different post. You just quote it and go "really".

Do I think the old page 5 is silly? Yeah. It's clearly going after a juvenile teen age boy market. They tightened things up when they did the remix book. And Les not caring that it was tongue in cheek? That just shows he's predisposed to interpreting it in the wrong way. It is tongue in cheek, so any consideration of the text that ignores that is factually incorrect.

Do I find it sexist or homophobic? Not really.

Do I find 40k's token usage of cultures (these space marines are norse and these ones are mongols!) to be racist? Not really.

I'm not very good at being a crusader who sees injustice in every game product though.

I know that its tongue in cheek, its obviously tongue in cheek but I don't think that excuses it. If you want to play the game published by a company that would approach its customers like this, then fine. I merely stated that it was one of the reasons why I decided to give warmachine a wide berth, and my thinking behind that decision.

**frozenwastes**

I get that you want to downplay the distance in time. And future revisions. You've said that you don't care that it's been changed. Think about that.

You have a criticism. It's been addressed and the new versions are different.

Yet you don't care. You want to hold up an out of print text, not allow it to be interpreted as humour, not care that it's been revised and for what?

So you can make this charge of sexism and homophobia.

**Yodhrin**

Grimtuff wrote:
Las wrote:

"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fething what." -Stephen Fry.

I can do this too.

What, quotemine to use a person's words to mean exactly the opposite of what they were actually talking about? The quote refers to an attempt to pass a law that could have resulted in the criminalisation of people making fun of religion or criticising their doctrines or beliefs publically, and I have to say it takes a serious amount of sack to use a quote from a gay man made in reference to his worry that homophobes in the church would use a new law to browbeat gay and atheistic comedians and thinkers to try and cast someone pointing out homophobia as a whiner.

If you want to try arguing that "Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you." doesn't display an element of homophobia and sexism, feel free, I always enjoy a good contortionist act, but do yourself a favour and check context next time.

**Las**

frozenwastes wrote:
I get that you want to downplay the distance in time. And future revisions You've said that you don't care that it's been changed. Think about that.

You have a criticism. It's been addressed and the new versions are different.

In my opinion, any company that would think that this kind of thing is appropriate in wargaming at any point does not deserve my money. That is why it doesn't matter to me that they've been forced to tone it down. In addition, I still find the current page 5 blurb juvenile and dumb but that's beside the point.

frozenwastes wrote:
Yet you don't care. You want to hold up an out of print text, not allow it to be interpreted as humour, not care that it's been revised and for what?

So you can make this charge of sexism and homophobia.

Interpret it as humour all you want. It is humour. It's not good humour in my opinion, but it is clearly an attempt.

Do what you want, guy.

**Grimtuff**

Yodhrin wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Las wrote:

"I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fething what." -Stephen Fry.

I can do this too.

If you want to try arguing that "Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you." doesn't display an element of homophobia and sexism, feel free, I always enjoy a good contortionist act, but do yourself a favour and check context next time.

I see you missed the intent of said post of randomly placing a quote with no context behind it.

"I'm not racist, I have black friends!" also adds nothing to any argument.

But I guess you were just too offended or something.

**frozenwastes**

Here's the text from the Hordes Primal MK2 book, digital edition, 2013. It's the newest "page 5" i could find:

2013 Page 5 wrote:The Five Rules of Page 5—mK ii
In keeping with a tradition as controversial as it is revered, Page 5 continues as a manifesto of our disposition, the philosophy with which we have created HORDES. Contained in these paragraphs is the doctrine of our players and the common ground upon which we do battle. Whether a grizzled vet or fresh meat, here are a few things you need to know if you’re going to survive in the unforgiving arena of monstrous miniatures combat.

1) Thou shalt not whine

This game is not suitable for wussies. If you cry when you lose, push off—’cause you’re going to lose. If it hurts your fragile sensibilities to see your favorite character get pounded unmercifully by a rapid succession of no-holds-barred fury, you’d better look the other way. If you’ve ever whined the words, “That’s too powerful,” then put downthe book and slowly walk away. Now.

This is a game about aggression. This is fierce and visceral combat. This is adrenaline-fueled rage hopped up on steroids. This is HORDES.

2) Come heavy, or don’t Come at all

In every dark alley is a ruthless bastard waiting to carve another notch in his bat with your face. And across every table, in his unassuming faded black T-shirt, is a cold-hearted killer mentally tearing you limb from limb.

HORDES favors the aggressor. You’ve got to throw the first punch if you want to land on top. If you wait for your opponent to come to you, you’re going to get steamrolled. You’ve got to have big [metaphorical] balls to play this game. You’ve got to charge your opponent and hang it all out there! You’ve got to break his formations. You’ve got to be relentless with your onslaught. You’ve got to go for the jugular and latch on like a rabid dog that hasn’t eaten in days.

Anything less, and you’ll be hamburger.

3) Give as Good as you Get

The proof is in the punishing—the one you give and the one you take. There’s no honor in clobbering the smallest kid in the yard, and there’s no pride to be won by blazing a path to the well for your fail-safe formula. The real bragging rights come from taking down the big dog with a move that jams his pizza hole open like a he just had a Titan in a tube sock applied vigorously to the back of his skull. Damn the status quo. Defy convention! Tempt defeat, then wipe that food-trapping snaggletoothed grin off its face with a wrecking ball.

If the fight is easy, you’re not challenging up the ladder.

4) win Graciously and lose valiantly

Page 5 is about honesty. It’s a self-awareness of what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, and who we’re doing it for. It’s about the kind of people we are and the kind of people we want to face across the table. Page 5 is a cultivated attitude designed to get the most out of the gaming experience. It’s about showing up, playing your hardest to win, feeling satisfaction in a game well lost, and respecting your opponent for the accomplished competitor he or she is, no matter what the outcome.

5) Page 5 is not an excuse

Most importantly—and let’s state this loud and clear for the record—Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition. It’s not a shield to hide behind when you’re playing like a sissified cheeseball, running down the clock, gaming a scenario, or rules lawyering your hapless opponent to death. Page 5 doesn’t discriminate between genders. And Page 5 is never, ever, EVER a license to diminish another player so you can inflate your own vertically challenged self-esteem.

Remember, we all come here to battle out of a common love.
Respect Page 5. Respect each other.

And now that we’re all on the same page . . .

Play like you’ve Got a Pair .

I'll pre-nit pick it for you:

Spoiler:

**Las**

Remember that promotional poster they ran with that named female character (because everything is named) clad in a low cut top standing in front of two monsters from hordes or whatever with the text "who needs a jack when youve got a pair of these?"

So radical, so sick, bro.