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What do you guys think is the most effective way to bring anti-armor to an astra militarum list? There are Vendettas, Lascannon Heavy Weapon Teams, Vanquisher Squads, Manticores, etc. Vanquisher squads can work well in this edition due to being able to use divination on them. Vendettas are really expensive now too, but they can also function as anti-air. So, what do you guys think works most effectively for their points? I would go with the mighty vanquisher.

it more depends on the opposition.

If its say... a Land Raider on the opposite side of the board. The long range power of the Vanquisher will punch through it.

If its smaller faster tanks then Vendettas can swoop in and tear them up.

Artillery in general work well as AT (if they hit), the Basilisk can work as a direct fire gun in a pinch. The Medusa armed with Bastion breach shells can function as a Super Heavy Killer due to the small blast and punch it has + the melta on top of it, or a heavy armor killer in general (assuming you don't scatter)

Heck, shove Rapier laser batteries inside Chimeras, pew pew.

and so on.

But the biggest thing.

Redundancy, Redundancy, Redundancy.

While each are good at killing tanks/armor, having large amounts of all of it allows you to stay a serious threat to armor even if a squad of 2 of LC teams die or a Vanquisher explodes or a Vendetta is shot to pieces.
In terms of overall effectiveness I don't know which would come out on top. But working together they can slay titans.

I realize how effective artillery can be against tanks, but I accidently forgot to include it in the poll.

Vanquishers, easily.

They can take 4 anti-tank weapons on a single model (5 if you include HK's for some reason), and up to 12 in a single squad. And we're talking real anti-tank weapons that can still blow up vehicles in a single shot with some of them at least.

And with AV14, they have huge durability at range - they are very likely to survive long enough to shoot at least once. And they start on the table, which means they can alpha strike.

The only thing that might be better are stormies, as they're just so cheap, now. They suffer from starting off the table, but they're also a lot of BS4 melta for a VERY reasonable price.

Plus you can throw pask in a vanquisher.

The Vanquisher mathematically isn't very good at destroying vehicles- it is however very consistent due to its range and its weapon having armorbane. You'll be knocking off an average of 1 hullpoint per round of shooting at AV10, rounding up, then it gets worse from there. You'll max out at a ~16% chance of getting the explodes result at AV10, then the percentage gets lower from there.

Pask in a Vanquisher will knock off an average of 1 hullpoint per round of shooting on vehicles of all AV's, and maxes out at a 25% chance of getting an explodes result on AV10, with the chance getting lower from there.

The math isn't factoring in lascannon or sponson shots, nor open-topped vehicles. It's also not factoring cover saves or invulns.

I'm not a fan of Vanquishers, personally. Their focus is too narrow for my tastes, and they don't really excel at their intended role when taken naked. They become more lethal when given upgrades and taken in multiples, but then you're spending upwards of 400 points to knock ~3 HP's off an AV10 vehicle or 1.5HP's off an AV14 vehicle a turn (three Vanquishers with lascannons is 430+ points, 500 with Pask), which isn't very efficient to me.

I think the Vendetta is pretty nasty.

3 TL Lascannons will do the job, especially combined with the speed to get that side/rear armour.

Eldar allies

 BlaxicanX wrote:
T but then you're spending upwards of 400 points to knock ~3 HP's off an AV10 vehicle or 1.5HP's off an AV14 vehicle a turn (three Vanquishers with lascannons is 430+ points, 500 with Pask), which isn't very efficient to me.

and if you're gonna spend those kind of points you might wanna consider an IK instead

BrianDavion wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
T but then you're spending upwards of 400 points to knock ~3 HP's off an AV10 vehicle or 1.5HP's off an AV14 vehicle a turn (three Vanquishers with lascannons is 430+ points, 500 with Pask), which isn't very efficient to me.

and if you're gonna spend those kind of points you might wanna consider an IK instead

And go right back down to being terrible at dealing with armor again?

Mavnas wrote:
And go right back down to being terrible at dealing with armor again?

Imperial Knights shred through vehicles without breaking a sweat. Not sure what you're saying here.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
And go right back down to being terrible at dealing with armor again?

Imperial Knights shred through vehicles without breaking a sweat. Not sure what you're saying here.

yes but the killing power of 6 anti tank shots, 3 lascannons and 3 s8 ap2 armourbane is nothing to shake a stick at, especially since it can target and potentially destroy 2 armour peices a turn. that and they dont need to get to assault toget gak done, they WILL be within range and dont need to rely on finicky blast templates.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
And go right back down to being terrible at dealing with armor again?

Imperial Knights shred through vehicles without breaking a sweat. Not sure what you're saying here.

yes but the killing power of 6 anti tank shots, 3 lascannons and 3 s8 ap2 armourbane is nothing to shake a stick at, especially since it can target and potentially destroy 2 armour peices a turn. that and they dont need to get to assault toget gak done, they WILL be within range and dont need to rely on finicky blast templates.

They can only smash two different targets if they're a tank commander squadron, and get an order off. I won't deny that three Vanquishers with all the trimmings are likely better AT than an Imperial Knight, but they also cost much more, can't outrun a threat to them (without an order, again) and are quite limited in target selection (Vehicles and MCs). Against all but the heaviest targets (see: land raiders, 300+ point MCs, monoliths, other russ squadrons) they're often massive overkill too. Both have their places, but implying getting a Knight over Vanquishers is shooting yourself in the foot is folly.

You can take a 50 man infantry squad with 5 lascannons with the ignore cover or tunk hunter order...

Vendetta loaded with a melta team with melta bombs or a demo charge. Shoot em up, drop em in, and charge that bad bitch.

I have had a lot of good luck with infantry blobs.

Also being able to get ignore cover is pretty good

 Leth wrote:
I have had a lot of good luck with infantry blobs.

What weapons do you use with them?

Also, do you use the 'attached' Heavy Weapon Teams, or the stand-alone squads of 3?

I use the infantry squads. 4x lascannons and melta bomb squads. Works pretty well. Throw Yarrick in there on a icarus lascannon and its go time.

 Leth wrote:
I use the infantry squads. 4x lascannons and melta bomb squads. Works pretty well. Throw Yarrick in there on a icarus lascannon and its go time.

You know the Icarus will snap fire at ground targets right?

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I use the infantry squads. 4x lascannons and melta bomb squads. Works pretty well. Throw Yarrick in there on a icarus lascannon and its go time.

You know the Icarus will snap fire at ground targets right?

Yep, but most of the vehicles that give me trouble are skimmers so I am not worried about that. Most vehicles get pretty messed up by 4 lascannons.

I however just re-tooled my list and found the points for the quadgun instead, just numerically against everything but wraithknights it is much better.

Mathematically, the Paskinator is just a monster when it comes to anti-tank duty. 20 str5 rending shots (rerolling failed pens) will tear up av 11-13 all day. In terms of av 14, I'm still a big fan of melta PCSs hopping out of Vendettas, especially if you can pull off the tank hunter order.
I will second the power of meltabomb/lascannon squads. Ignores cover is pretty clutch with so many Wave Serpents running around, and you can just shift to Tank Hunters against the omnipresent Imperial Knights.

The 50 man blob with 5 lascannons and meltabombs is very, very good at destroying tanks due to armor. I've seen 2 of them in action vs. Wave Serpents and it was fantastic.

Imperial Knights, i'd argue, make great allies for IG and are almost certainly an overall better investment than stocking up on Russes. They are just as difficult to kill, but put much more pressure on the enemy. The melta pie-plate, while not great, allows you to get a few shots off while closing the gap.

BlaxicanX wrote:The math isn't factoring in lascannon or sponson shots, nor open-topped vehicles. It's also not factoring cover saves or invulns.

Well... yeah. Of course it's going to look terrible if you don't give it weapon upgrades. Half of the entire point of taking a russ in the first place is criminally cheap hull weapons on a sturdy chassis.

The comparison here is like saying that a CCS is bad against tanks when you only give one of its veterans a meltagun. Yes... but you can also give it three more meltaguns...

Thing is, a mere two lines after that statement, I did provide the average HP removal three Vanquishers, each with lascannons, would put on a vehicle...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Thing is, a mere two lines before that statement, I did provide the average HP removal three Vanquishers, each with lascannons, would put on a vehicle...

Arguing with Ailaros is a Sisyphean task.

Guard have historically relied on Lascannons and Autocannons to deal with armour. I've found Meltaguns to be too squishy to get into range short of deep strike, and then you're running the risk of scattering way from your target, and then being bolter chow.

I still find that my heavies are doing the heavy lifting, if you follow. The longer range lets me [hopefully!] have multiple turns to grind down the hull points, or catch a lucky explode result.

I've been mixing up my Veterans in Chimera to have Boltgun, 2x Melta, 1x Plasma, and 1x AC. If I sit still, I can blast away at range with the Plasma / AC, and snapshots on the move vs far-off vehicles. If I manage to get close, the Meltaguns take over. If I get close to "light infantry" the Heavy Flamer on the Hull does well, and I can fire the Boltgun instead of the AC against Orks or Nids. It's a surprisingly effective multi-purpose unit, given that we can only fire two weapons from the hatch now.

Vanquishers are nice, especially behind an Aegis. Add the Hull LC and either MM or PC sponsons, depending on your taste. Either way, you're set to go after any vehicle [MM] or have a secondary function of Medium Vehicles / Elite Infantry with PC's. Same token, the Exterminator makes for a powerful medium vehicle hunter.

I find my workhorses are Lascannon-like weapons [such as the Vanquisher] and Autocannon-like weapons [such as a Multi-laser]. I still take melta here and there, but it's more of a "if it happens, great" choice than dedicated plan.


PS: I'm not fond of Divination anymore, given the overall weakness of IG's psyker pool. Yes, you can generate more than 5 dice, but if you do, you're severely hampering some typical strength that IG enjoy. I'm running into casual lists with 15+ psyker dice, from GK, to Nids, to Eldar... my metagame doesn't bode well for the utility Librarian anymore. I've started using Kurov's Aquila with a sit'n'shoot CCS in a Chimera, 2x Russ on the flanks [No LOS to the weak side armour!] and a trio of infantry squads to protect them. Hide them behind an Aegis.

For less than the cost of a Lv 2 Primaris, I give Preferred Enemy to 7 units [including the Chimera] and the number of rerolls I take advantage of is surprising. Think of all the squads you hit with a Battle Cannon, only to have one or two guys survive because you're apt to roll a couple of one's, right? Not anymore! It's also a savior for overheat rolls, making my preference for plasma all the more sane.

I don't really have to contend with a lot of armor within my little group save the odd Land Raider Crusader and various Eldar lameness.

Ignores cover lascannons with possible prescience are pretty nasty, but I tend to field more tanks than anything else. Pask in a Punisher is hilarious against anything Nid or Demon related, and when he's in a Vanquisher he wrecks anything he shoots at.

I keep trying to find the merits of going all out infantry, what with Kurov's Aquila giving PE to massed HWT's and blobs...but I can't stop fielding my tanks. They're too much fun and that AV14 has frustrated many an opponent.