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Well, as a long time ork player, I can tell you that there are two ways of doing it.

Way 1 is as you describe: take a homogenous horde, and fly straight at the enemy going for assault. This is precisely the same level of tactics as the Eldar player with 8 wave serpents, the SM with a dozen drop pods, and the Nid player with Tervigons and gaunts galore: Zero. The army wins, or loses, purely on stat lines times die rolls, and when that is a strong choice, (see current Tau, Eldar, Daemon lists) it's damn irritating because anyone can play it at it's max effectiveness.

However, there is a way #2 that exists and is more fun and more difficult. For Tactical Orks, the real key is cost effectiveness and opponent distraction. Victory is equivalent to the kills a unit makes plus the resources your opponent commits to killing them minus their points cost. Just like an Eldar player may want to deliver a Jetbike Deathstar to crush the main body of the enemy army, the Orks want to deliver their Boyz or Nobz core to the main body of the enemy and engage them in close combat unscathed. The way they do that is by employing any number of distraction units. My personal favorites right now are Snikrot's double-Burna delivery service (a unit that can either show up stealthed and shrouded in a piece of area terrain and draw massive fire, or can pop up behind the enemy backline and take a chunk out of an infantry blob before the enemy must devote moderate fire to kill them) and the massively shooty battle wagon full of Flash Gits, which can trundle around the battlefield soaking up AT fire as a screen for Trukks. The thing is, at present, nearly every unit in the ork codex is usable and they are the real points of finesse you can use to push their power level from average to quite strong.

While losing to a rolling homogenous Boyz horde is obnoxious, think about how losing to a Tau gun line or Eldar serpent spam is. What about a pure Nid swarm? The Orks have usable shooting, assaulting, deep striking, Artillery, Bikes, Mechanized infantry, foot slogging infantry, outflanking, fliers, walkers, and tank units-that's more variety than most other armies in the game. I mean, Eldar just have Mech Infsntry, MC's and the occasional Tank. DE are basically JUST mechanized infantry. Tyranids? MCs and foot slogging infantry.

I think you are being pretty bias right there.

Wave Serpent spam is OP, broken, and will win a lot of match ups just based on it's strength. However, at match ups on it's own level of power, range dictation, target seperation, cover/LoS abuse, there is a lot of things a player can do to get more out of that list. Yes, it's often played by derps looking for their noskill win button - but the capacity for tactical play is definitely there in many ways for WSS

The Orks have usable shooting, assaulting, deep striking, Artillery, Bikes, Mechanized infantry, foot slogging infantry, outflanking, fliers, walkers, and tank units-that's more variety than most other armies in the game. I mean, Eldar just have Mech Infsntry, MC's and the occasional Tank.

Sure, I mean other than Eldars deep strikers, assault units, Artillery, flyers, walkers, mechanised infantry, outflanking, and Bikes, there's almost no comparison. I mean, aside from all the stuff that you just mentioned for Orks but not for Eldar (even though they also have it all) Eldar really has nothing except a couple of tanks and MCs. All those things only count for Orks, because hey, as of now Orks are the most strategically complex codex ever written right?

 easysauce wrote:
so an army, that pretty much relies on the UNDER powered assault phase,

has to survive a turn or two of being shot with no real retaliation, but then still makes it into CC, and "turns the game into one big assault phase",

takes no tactics?


sounds like its much MUCH harder to make a weaker tactic llike CC work then it is to "just stand there and shoot while not doing anything"

sounds like you are bitter, misinformed, and have no concept of what tactics really are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LongStrike wrote:
Thread title changed.

Reds8n

I just think that orks is a tar pit horde. Yes you have to decide what to assault, and shoot but that's just about every army. I've just got no respect for the army that's my personal opinion.

so having to decide how to move, assault, and shoot, takes less tactics then the other armies who just sit there and shoot?

ok there...


I love it when people who get consistently beaten by an army whine and pout how it takes no tactics... not like its possibly they are the better player, cause orks? they are OP CHEESE! take some flufffy weak army like eldar FFS....

at least its refreshing to hear someone complain about the OP ness of orks instead of how under powered they are...

Is all the flame and hate really necessary? For what it's worth, I agree with most of what you said, but surely there is a more constructive way to say it instead of bashing the OP.

Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

But I will agree that DE are basically JUST mechanised infantry, absolutely no doubt about that. Oh except for the Jetbikes, two different playable flyers, their Ravager gunboat that makes it's way into every list at least once, their Webway Portal strategies, their dirt cheap T7 MCs, oh and the fact number one centrepiece of every list being a footslogging infantry assault Beast unit.

Orks are just much more strategical than playing the paperthin glass cannon army that relies entirely in range dictation and critical Rapidfire weaponry decisions and needs to be aware of and abusing it's opponents threat vectors and damage projection at all times. Orks playstyle is just far more advanced than that, they can take distraction units to help their Nobz get into combat. It's next level stuff. Dark Eldar is so simplistic it's basically just Mechanized Infantry

 Random Dude wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

in 15 games, i finally had a game where mob rule was casually being bad for me.

Mob rule is not a bad thing, in fact it helps smaller units because they at least get SOMETHING out of it while the old rule didnt even phase them.
On average a failed morale or pinning check for me was causing 1-2 wounds, with the once in a blue moon bogey of 4wounds (very rare). My last game was the first one that caused 3+ wounds every time, and i blame that on my opponent's dice since he was rolling oddly the entire game (he nuked two of his psykers during the first psyker phase...with 2 dice lol) so im more leaning towards his dice were funky, not statistics being against me.

Everyone immediately views mob rule as bad and severely nerfs orks. Its a nerf, yes, but its NO WHERE as big a nerf as everyone portrays it as.

Coming from someone who plays both orks and de, I can confidently say their strategies really aren't that far off from each other.

Apart from venom spam, most de armies try to get to the opponent asap so they can unleash their gunboats full potential, have wyches haywire tanks, while beasts, incubi, grotesques, and wracks beat people up in cc and or flame the snot out of infantry with their liquifier guns in the case of the latter two. Sure most de are squishier than orks and there is usually less of them, but apart from that they pretty much have similar goals depending on what army style you run.

 Random Dude wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

Exactly why having more boyz is the best way to go. Its a nerf to trunk boyz only squads. Its similar to when fearless mob rule made you take wounds.. its a trade off

So...people get annoyed when Orks get into CC and turn the last 2-3 turns into a CC phase...yet, they are Ok with the first 2-3 turns being a Shooting/Psychic phase?

I'm sorry...wut?

So, the game is only good if your army gets to do what it's good at, but as soon as my army can throw its weight around...it's a bad game now? Seems legit.

Also...I think this may be the only time I've seen HATE for Orks, one of the 'weakest' factions in the entire game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

Exactly why having more boyz is the best way to go. Its a nerf to trunk boyz only squads. Its similar to when fearless mob rule made you take wounds.. its a trade off

Maybe I'm the only one, but the Mob RUle has done VERY little damage to me in the 5 games I've played this far. In total, i've only lost maybe 5 Boyz to it. Not an exaggeration.

Melevolence wrote:
So...people get annoyed when Orks get into CC and turn the last 2-3 turns into a CC phase...yet, they are Ok with the first 2-3 turns being a Shooting/Psychic phase?

I'm sorry...wut?

So, the game is only good if your army gets to do what it's good at, but as soon as my army can throw its weight around...it's a bad game now? Seems legit.

Also...I think this may be the only time I've seen HATE for Orks, one of the 'weakest' factions in the entire game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

Exactly why having more boyz is the best way to go. Its a nerf to trunk boyz only squads. Its similar to when fearless mob rule made you take wounds.. its a trade off

Maybe I'm the only one, but the Mob RUle has done VERY little damage to me in the 5 games I've played this far. In total, i've only lost maybe 5 Boyz to it. Not an exaggeration.

It could be luck. I saw a Frontline Gaming batrep in which Reece lost 30 boyz.

30 boyz? i call bullcrap on that unless he got blasted multiple times by multiple pinning weapons (or for that matter, without pinning).

Morale checks are ONLY done at the end of the phase, not every time a model dies and its under 25%. A 30man unit needs 8 boyz to die before a leadership is needed, or one to die for a pinning check. Pinning guns are kinda rare in 7th since snipers and barrage lost the general rule for pinning, as did Strafing Run for our dakkajets. Actually outside Gun Drones i cant even think of one people use that has pinning these days that you would be caught wasting on boyz instead of a damn tank or something.

D6 average is 3-4, of which 50% will wound. I have confirmed this throughout my 15 games as i stated in an earlier post that only ONE GAME i had bogeys causing more than 1-3 wounds per failed check.

Regardless of the weapon, i have never seen a single barrage of bullets kill more than 9 boyz at once. Either because of range, bad dice, or volume of fire, killing more than 9 boyz in a single volley is unheard of. Assuming you rolled a 6 for both the pinning and morale (if there was a pinning) and all 12 wounded, thats STILL not 30 boyz and one hell of a bad luck streak.

 Random Dude wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
So...people get annoyed when Orks get into CC and turn the last 2-3 turns into a CC phase...yet, they are Ok with the first 2-3 turns being a Shooting/Psychic phase?

I'm sorry...wut?

So, the game is only good if your army gets to do what it's good at, but as soon as my army can throw its weight around...it's a bad game now? Seems legit.

Also...I think this may be the only time I've seen HATE for Orks, one of the 'weakest' factions in the entire game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eldar have the options, but need not make use of most of them to enter and compete in high levels of play. Orks, we don't know. I still think it's too early to make a call on competitive orks. My lean for the army would include mass mek guns behind an ADL, and shooting units in open topped transports.

The new mob rule is brutal making open topped transports less viable. Almost every morale or pinning check you take is going to kill boyz.

Exactly why having more boyz is the best way to go. Its a nerf to trunk boyz only squads. Its similar to when fearless mob rule made you take wounds.. its a trade off

Maybe I'm the only one, but the Mob RUle has done VERY little damage to me in the 5 games I've played this far. In total, i've only lost maybe 5 Boyz to it. Not an exaggeration.

It could be luck. I saw a Frontline Gaming batrep in which Reece lost 30 boyz.

Seems like an extreme. since the max you can cause per mob would, hypothetically be 6 wounds. (a few more potentially if using Waagh detach). So, he must of had some VERY bad luck using a LOT of models to lose 30 in a single game.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
30 boyz? i call bullcrap on that unless he got blasted multiple times by multiple pinning weapons (or for that matter, without pinning).

Morale checks are ONLY done at the end of the phase, not every time a model dies and its under 25%. A 30man unit needs 8 boyz to die before a leadership is needed, or one to die for a pinning check. Pinning guns are kinda rare in 7th since snipers and barrage lost the general rule for pinning, as did Strafing Run for our dakkajets. Actually outside Gun Drones i cant even think of one people use that has pinning these days that you would be caught wasting on boyz instead of a damn tank or something.

D6 average is 3-4, of which 50% will wound. I have confirmed this throughout my 15 games as i stated in an earlier post that only ONE GAME i had bogeys causing more than 1-3 wounds per failed check.

He brought the max amount of trucks filled with boyz. His opponent brought Salamders DP/Melta spam so...

Thats way different, since 12 models with a t-shirt are considerably easier to clear up than 30.

Yes mob rule has a chance to go sour fast for boyz without armor, since odds are you will lose 5-7 of them if the trukk explodes and probably 3-4 between the morale and pinning if you fail them. Unlikely, but possible, and even if they did thats 147pts of tissue-paper. Big deal lol.
That being said, that is why i avoid trukks like the plague with non-'ard boyz. Even before the mob rule change, it was too easy to clean up.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
30 boyz? i call bullcrap on that unless he got blasted multiple times by multiple pinning weapons (or for that matter, without pinning).

Morale checks are ONLY done at the end of the phase, not every time a model dies and its under 25%. A 30man unit needs 8 boyz to die before a leadership is needed, or one to die for a pinning check. Pinning guns are kinda rare in 7th since snipers and barrage lost the general rule for pinning, as did Strafing Run for our dakkajets. Actually outside Gun Drones i cant even think of one people use that has pinning these days that you would be caught wasting on boyz instead of a damn tank or something.

D6 average is 3-4, of which 50% will wound. I have confirmed this throughout my 15 games as i stated in an earlier post that only ONE GAME i had bogeys causing more than 1-3 wounds per failed check.

He brought the max amount of trucks filled with boyz. His opponent brought Salamders DP/Melta spam so...

So, completely unsurprisingly, trukk boy spam is still bad and gets even worse if someone spams drop pod melta. Mob rule has nothing to do with this, a bad list was killed by its perfect counter and somehow managed to ramp up mob rule wounds while getting butchered. Under the old mob rule, the boyz would have been pinned or running away with no way of regrouping, which isn't exactly better.

Wait a second, isn't there a batrep on Dakka that has a Grot list with WEIRDBOYZ beating Knights? How do people even post this sort of gak.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Coming from someone who plays both orks and de, I can confidently say their strategies really aren't that far off from each other.

Apart from venom spam, most de armies try to get to the opponent asap so they can unleash their gunboats full potential, have wyches haywire tanks, while beasts, incubi, grotesques, and wracks beat people up in cc and or flame the snot out of infantry with their liquifier guns in the case of the latter two. Sure most de are squishier than orks and there is usually less of them, but apart from that they pretty much have similar goals depending on what army style you run.

Yeah, my point was less that one army is harder to play than the other, just that it's silly to sit there and pretend that Orks are the pinnacle of competitive strategy and DE is "nothing but mechanised infantry". It can be swung both ways.

That being said however it sounds like you have a pretty specific style of assaulty DE, which is why it may feel similar to you. 3 units of Blasterborn and a bunch of Warriors in Venoms coupled with max Ravager has a different style of play to it. One that I would say is way more challenging and tactical than an Orky style of play. Just being realistic here, not every army is rested equal.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Coming from someone who plays both orks and de, I can confidently say their strategies really aren't that far off from each other.

Apart from venom spam, most de armies try to get to the opponent asap so they can unleash their gunboats full potential, have wyches haywire tanks, while beasts, incubi, grotesques, and wracks beat people up in cc and or flame the snot out of infantry with their liquifier guns in the case of the latter two. Sure most de are squishier than orks and there is usually less of them, but apart from that they pretty much have similar goals depending on what army style you run.

Yeah, my point was less that one army is harder to play than the other, just that it's silly to sit there and pretend that Orks are the pinnacle of competitive strategy and DE is "nothing but mechanised infantry". It can be swung both ways.

That being said however it sounds like you have a pretty specific style of assaulty DE, which is why it may feel similar to you. 3 units of Blasterborn and a bunch of Warriors in Venoms coupled with max Ravager has a different style of play to it. One that I would say is way more challenging and tactical than an Orky style of play. Just being realistic here, not every army is rested equal.

Gotcha

Melevolence wrote:
Maybe I'm the only one, but the Mob RUle has done VERY little damage to me in the 5 games I've played this far. In total, i've only lost maybe 5 Boyz to it. Not an exaggeration.

Had a great fun game where my warboss was not to be outdone by some pansy beaky, I killed far more boyz in those rounds of combat than he did.

Waaargh wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
Maybe I'm the only one, but the Mob RUle has done VERY little damage to me in the 5 games I've played this far. In total, i've only lost maybe 5 Boyz to it. Not an exaggeration.

Had a great fun game where my warboss was not to be outdone by some pansy beaky, I killed far more boyz in those rounds of combat than he did.

Dat's cause we're da best!!