Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is mass AP4 on Berzerkers good for anything at all?

They're "good" at killing 4+sv or worse models, of course. But the problem is that they're basically overkill. Against units with 3+sv's the AP4 weapons are useless, and you're relying on sheer mass of wounds. Against units that have 4+sv's or worse, your AP4 is denying them their armor save and you're butchering them, but even if you didn't have AP4 weapons, you'd still be butchering them.

Take fire warriors. Without AP4 weapons, a 10-man beserker unit is killing 11 fire warriors on the charge. With AP4 weapons, that unit is killing 22 fire warriors. That sounds great, but a fire warrior unit can't get bigger than 10 models, so you're overkilling them. You would have wiped the squad just as easily without the chain-axes.

Fighting guardsmen has the same result. You're killing 15 guardsmen on the charge without chain-axes, versus 22 with them. 15 dead guardsmen is more than enough to cripple a squad.

So yeah. In general, chain-axes aren't really worth it for their costs. The situation in which chain-axes would be most useful would be against like, a toughness 5 4+sv unit. That is, mathematically, the sweet spot where putting down twice as many wounds with chain-axes then without is pretty noticeable. 13 wounds versus 7.

I can agree that the best method of using a close combat army is to go big, but it is a one trick pony and can be expensive ($$ wise). It can get boring also.

80 Beserkers? Isn't that 1600 points without gear? What do you leave for AT or AA?

Mixed in with spawn, some hounds, and possessed, and probably a maulerfiend (I still don't have one :() they work pretty well. The thing I hate the most about them is that they hit REALLY REALLY HARD on an organized charge, and then your one trick pony is really done. Yes, they will kill whatever they get into assault with, usually on the first turn, but when you have the option of taking fleet units that can also pour the pain on in melee, they kind of lose their luster. I do have to say that it is really really fullfilling to watch them run through IG gun lines and hordes of nids all game, though. If you want to have some fun, take a khorn lord with an axe of blind fury and stick him in a squad of berzerkers. The sheer amount of attacks on the charge is ridiculous. They got a boon in 7th in the form of challenges as well, so they can't be stalled out as easily as some of the other melee choices in the book due to how many attacks they have spilling over after your lord murders the opposition.

At a practical level, here's the problem with Berzerkers. You can't count on them.

A fellow Chaos player has an army with 50 of them. He puts a unit of 20 of them in a Spartan assault tank and has 3 other squads of 10.

They are wonderfully choppy in most games. He aims the Spartan towards the thing he wants to kill, the Berzerkers charge, and they kill whatever they go after. I actually want to watch his games, he's an artist with the tactics.

Then there's the odd game against an Eldar player, where the Chaos army just goes down in a couple rounds. The Spartan blows up, the Berzerkers get chewed up, and the whole assault collapses before anyone gets into cc.

It's not just that Eldar are a good army, it's that you need to be lucky to win with them. Something goes wrong, and there goes the game.

 techsoldaten wrote:
At a practical level, here's the problem with Berzerkers. You can't count on them.

A fellow Chaos player has an army with 50 of them. He puts a unit of 20 of them in a Spartan assault tank and has 3 other squads of 10.

They are wonderfully choppy in most games. He aims the Spartan towards the thing he wants to kill, the Berzerkers charge, and they kill whatever they go after. I actually want to watch his games, he's an artist with the tactics.

Then there's the odd game against an Eldar player, where the Chaos army just goes down in a couple rounds. The Spartan blows up, the Berzerkers get chewed up, and the whole assault collapses before anyone gets into cc.

It's not just that Eldar are a good army, it's that you need to be lucky to win with them. Something goes wrong, and there goes the game.

Too true. This edition there seems to be too ways to get into assault. Either by throwing an extra tough fast unit at your opponent (like the popular juggernaut-lord w/ spawn combo) or threat overload. Berzerkers aren't especially tough, so they have to rely on threat overload. Take as many assault threats as you can and throw it all at your opponent as fast as you can. The basic idea here is that as long as even a portion of your army makes it you've succeeded because they can beat anything you opponent has in cc.

The obvious problems with this tactic are what if your opponent can hold their own when assaulted (like space wolves) or can out-gun you too the point where your assault never happens or is too weak (like eldar or tau)? Well then its basically over. Honestly what it comes down to is assault in crippled this edition, and while you can make it work with certain things, you're always gonna be fighting an uphill battle.

A blob of 20 Khorne-Marked marines with Enhanced Warriors from Fabius, a second squad of them with Fabius in it, and a third with Kharn. Give them all a rhino with dirge and destroyer blades, then point them at the enemy and go long-distance running. Cover saves, no overwatch, 2 meltas per squad, and all fearless. Just as effective as Zerkers, all you lose is 1 WS and Veterans.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Poison doesn't reroll to wound if S=T now

Thank you, I missed that.

 Badablack wrote:
A blob of 20 Khorne-Marked marines with Enhanced Warriors from Fabius, a second squad of them with Fabius in it, and a third with Kharn. Give them all a rhino with dirge and destroyer blades, then point them at the enemy and go long-distance running. Cover saves, no overwatch, 2 meltas per squad, and all fearless. Just as effective as Zerkers, all you lose is 1 WS and Veterans.

You can't put 20 marines in a Rhino. Or are you referring to footslogging after them?

 Filch wrote:
They use to be extremely good in 5th ed when charging and multi-assaulting was ridiculous!

This. You used to be able to Rhino Rush Berzerkers, and they played OK like that. Not amazingly, but not poorly either.

Nowadays? Very much meh. There are much better units for the points. If I want to play a very aggressive Rush-style CSM army, I'm running 15 Spawn, twin Nurgle Biker lords, and a few Maulerfiends.

Khorne Berserkers are excellent models for participating in a game which no longer exists, where squads fight squads.

In today's game, squads that try and shoot get chumped (too many points spend on the guys standing around not holding the weapons that matter).

Squads that try and fight get chumped by characters, monstrous creatures, superheavies and enemy shooting.

In general, the roles that a squad can fill are being difficult to remove at range, popping out of a drop pod to melta things and delivering characters to enemy's.

Berserkers are terrible at all of these.

CSM can't get into a drop pod.
Berserkers are just as easy to remove at range as cheaper CSM, and have no heavy weapons, or even bolters to shoot back. They also share a dex with models (Noise Marines/Plague Marines) who are great at this.
Zerkers are not fast or tough, so they form bad candy coating for Jugger Lords, etc.

Don't bother with Berserkers nowadays (whether or not to bother with CSM at all is a thornier question).

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Fighting guardsmen has the same result. You're killing 15 guardsmen on the charge without chain-axes, versus 22 with them. 15 dead guardsmen is more than enough to cripple a squad.

My 30 man blob and their political officer disagree with you. If you don't wipe over half the squad with your charge bonus they can be fully expected to stick and give some wounds back before dying to the last man. Those 22 wounds would make the difference between ever using that CC unit in the game again or not.

They shouldn't. The squad not breaking and getting swept the turn I charge just means that I get to finish them off in your turn, keeping the Beserkers safe from shooting in your turn and allowing me to move and charge another squad at the start of mine.