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Naw wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
That's your opinion. A judge that has to make a call must use rules that are written, not opinions.

So when they decided that rerollable 2+ means the reroll is 4+ it follows RAW?!?

Good job comparing things that are completely different!
One was a call made for balance and announced beforehand, so people could play with the knowledge in advance.
The other was a call made during a game where one player was completely surprised when it contradicted the actual rules.

That was a ruling made on the fly or was part of the ruleset you had agreed when you entered the tournament?

The 4+ on rerolls is part of the ruleset when you enter the tournament (at least it was in the FAQ last year, I assume that clause was there this year).

One thing I would add to the original discussion is that the FOC works on a unit level, not model level. ICs can still count as HQ units when they are attached to a troop, because they are distinct units. The Cryptek, on the other hand, is just a model - it's not it's own "unit" any longer, it's now part of the troop unit. The same goes for Farseers and Wolf Guard - they start life as HQ/Elite units, but when they are broken up they stop being units at all. Instead, they become models that are part of the unit they join.

Here's a question that might clarify everyone's thinking: if you have a royal court consisting of 4 crypteks, and break them up and join them to 4 warrior units, and by the end of the game the 4 warrior units are completely destroyed (crypteks and all), how many units count as being destroyed?

I know that it was, but it also shows that a judge does not must follow the rules as written.

As for the Cryptek issue, I believe that horse has been beaten to death many times already. I do not disagree with the (old) FAQ or the ruling.

Naw wrote:
I know that it was, but it also shows that a judge does not must follow the rules as written.

They do (should) for on the spot calls. Contradicting the written rules during an event a) could lead people to have played differently in prior games, and so be accused of "cheating" b) completely destroy a player's plan for dealing with something, meaning you do a disservice to the player.

people keep quoting 'for all purposes' referencing the crypteks joining units. that's not actually in the rules, anywhere. or for SW WG units, either.

if folks have house ruled this in the past, that's cool, and if there was an old FAQ that addressed this, that's cool too except it's no longer valid.

 gigasnail wrote:
people keep quoting 'for all purposes' referencing the crypteks joining units. that's not actually in the rules, anywhere. or for SW WG units, either.

if folks have house ruled this in the past, that's cool, and if there was an old FAQ that addressed this, that's cool too except it's no longer valid.

The Cryptek joins the unit. It's part of the unit. Please cite permission to treat him as something other than part of the unit he joined.
If you think you have an argument based on rules, that's cool, but you should support it with actual, I don't know, rules. That's cool.

@gigasnail Well there is that quote I posted not so long ago. Can you quote a rule from the rulebook that supports your opinion? I don't think you'll find any. Nevertheless, until you do find one, treat crypteks/pack leaders/etc as a normal troopers in their units.

Crypteks are not an HQ choice and have no FoC slot that they take up.

You are required to buy certain HQ slots to unlock them, however they do not take up an HQ slot.

This means that they must be placed into units from their own detachment only, as per the section in the rulebook "army list entries that do not use force org slots"

from the rulebook:

CHARACTER TYPES Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Crypteks are not IC, much like sgt characters, ork meks, they become part of the unit they join at the start of the game. They are part of the unit. They do not revert to another status when the unit dies, just like a mek that joined a boyz unit doesn't reverts to anything else.. . It does say that most characters are fielded in units with their own profile but do not have a separate entry. As we can see most does not mean ALL and obviously the crypteks are fielded as a character in a squad but from a separate entry, just like ork meks.

they also count as part of the squad for purposes of things like ghost ark adding more models to a squad.

Sounds like there's enough debate that either call could be argued. In such a case (to answer the OP) it is definetly not 'a screw up'.

I'm guessing the Judges have to make calls all day long and there's only so long you can spend discussing it. Except on the internet, on the internet you can discus it for 100 pages!

Or, given GWs inability (or reluctance) to do FAQs, the TO may have decided to use 6th ed FAQs (WHERE APPLICABLE). And there was a 6th ed FAQ on Wolf Guard Pack Leaders that said they became a Troop if they joined a Troop unit, a Heavy if they joined Long Fangs, etc etc.

rigeld2 wrote:

Naw wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
That's your opinion. A judge that has to make a call must use rules that are written, not opinions.

So when they decided that rerollable 2+ means the reroll is 4+ it follows RAW?!?

Good job comparing things that are completely different!
One was a call made for balance and announced beforehand, so people could play with the knowledge in advance.
The other was a call made during a game where one player was completely surprised when it contradicted the actual rules.

Another thing, the call was made AFTER the game was over. How can you have a game over, say the guy won, then 10 minutes later say, nope I made a mistake you lost then go to the judge to say that he should have won.

That is like saying, I made a mistake on turn 1, I get to do a redo. I thought once you made your move, you have to take it and accept it. This person who lost didn't take it, and then had to say Oh wait I still win, even AFTER the verdict was made and he agreed to he lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So the question I have now is, can An HQ join a troop choice, have OS, then leave it and still become OS? Why or why not?

Davor wrote:

So the question I have now is, can An HQ join a troop choice, have OS, then leave it and still become OS? Why or why not?

This is not a fair comparison. Normal HQ IC's can join and leave a unit at will. In this case, the Cryptek, once joined to the unit, is stuck to the unit for the remainder of the game. Again, as has been noted by others:

- if the troops are killed and the cryptek isn't, have you earned a VP?
- if you kill the entire unit, do you get 2 VPs?

This is a unique situation the rules do not specifically address.

Davor wrote:

So the question I have now is, can An HQ join a troop choice, have OS, then leave it and still become OS? Why or why not?

Specific HQs that have a rule where they join a Troops unit for the entire game have OS and keep OS for the entire game because they do not have permission to leave that unit.

HQs that are Independent Characters who join a Troops unit also get OS while they're part of that unit. But once that unit is destroyed or once they leave the unit then they lose OS because the rules for Independent Characters tell you to treat them as their own unit once they're no longer attached to a unit.

You see, the IC rules give permission for the IC to leave a unit once it has been destroyed. Models like Crypteks and Warlocks do not have such a rule.

Normal HQs are ICs, they do not become part of the unit they are assigned to. IE they can opt to leave it.

but to answer your question, the slotless HQ "mek" from ork codex can join an troop unit and gain objective secured. They cannot choose to ever leave the unit [just like a cryptek] and if the unit is killed off, except for the mek somehow, still count as part of the unit, as they may not leave the unit.

Davor wrote:


Another thing, the call was made AFTER the game was over. How can you have a game over, say the guy won, then 10 minutes later say, nope I made a mistake you lost then go to the judge to say that he should have won.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So the question I have now is, can An HQ join a troop choice, have OS, then leave it and still become OS? Why or why not?

Heh, I did the reverse once at one of GWs US GTs. Went to the judges after the game was over and told them I screwed up on something and was forfeiting the game. I misplayed something (don't recall what any more) and it might have had enough impact to alter the game. So I forfeited after the results (with me winning) had been turned in.

On the other, as has already been pointed out, totally different situation. There are actually a number of these HQ or Elite units that become part of the unit and unable to leave it. Necron one under discussion, SW Wolf Guard, Ork Mek, IG Commissar, and I'm sure there are others.

A regular IC joins a unit and is pretty much a part of it, and still doesn't change his FOC slot or role. This isn't any different, except the model in question is just a character. It's still purchased as part of a slotless HQ, just like an honor guard.

No one's got anything else, pretty sure we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Out of curiosity, what makes the part of the faq that was not errata no longer valid? They're simply answering how they would play those rules, which is sometimes bizarre and contradictory, but if the language has not changed why would it cease to be correct?

There's a new FAQ.

 RobPro wrote:
Out of curiosity, what makes the part of the faq that was not errata no longer valid? They're simply answering how they would play those rules, which is sometimes bizarre and contradictory, but if the language has not changed why would it cease to be correct?

Only thing that would invalidate it is if the core rules changed so as to be in conflict (which is why I did the bolded 'where applicable' in my previous post). In this instance, that is not the case.

To the OP, would you apply your same reasoning to my Commissar in an IG blob? To the Wolf Guard in a a squad of Grey Hunters. To the Mek in a mob of Boyz? If not, why in this one? And if yes, well, sorry, but yeah, just gonna have to disagree.

 gigasnail wrote:
A regular IC joins a unit and is pretty much a part of it, and still doesn't change his FOC slot or role. This isn't any different, except the model in question is just a character. It's still purchased as part of a slotless HQ, just like an honor guard.

No one's got anything else, pretty sure we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This is actually entirely different. Independent characters have rules stating that they gain all the special rules of an unit they join, and lose them when they are no longer part of that unit. read the rules in the rulebook on Independent characters and ongoing effects. Crypteks, warlocks, Meks, and all the other similar units do not have the independent character special rule. They do not "join" units at all, they are assigned to a unit before the game starts and are a member of that unit for the entire game. This is fundamentally different from Independent Characters, who have rules allowing them to join/leave, and how to handle those situations. Crypteks simply become a member of the unit they are assigned to. As a member of that unit, Crypteks gain the special rules of that unit (such as objective secured). Also, Crypteks are not HQ units. They do not have an FOC slot, they are only taken as an upgrade to an HQ choice. That's a bit off topic, but it's just a misconception I noticed earlier.

I can see what a lot of people are saying now. Where in the rule book can I read this? Where are the page numbers that state since a unit can join Say HQ, Elite or what not joins a Troop choice and can't leave it, become OS even when all the troops are eliminated? If this ever comes up and I play it your way, I need to prove it. How can I prove this?

I have the iPad version. Page numbers are different from the paper version. If you can't give the iPad page number can you tell me what section and where to look for that rule?

I mean it has to say somewhere where an HQ choice behaves like a troop choice for what ever purposes.

Davor wrote:
I can see what a lot of people are saying now. Where in the rule book can I read this? Where are the page numbers that state since a unit can join Say HQ, Elite or what not joins a Troop choice and can't leave it, become OS even when all the troops are eliminated? If this ever comes up and I play it your way, I need to prove it. How can I prove this?

I have the iPad version. Page numbers are different from the paper version. If you can't give the iPad page number can you tell me what section and where to look for that rule?

I mean it has to say somewhere where an HQ choice behaves like a troop choice for what ever purposes.

It's in the Necron codex. The Cryptek joins a Warrior unit. That's all you need to prove - for it to become anything but the Warrior unit after all the Warriors die would require a rule... that doesn't exist.

Yep, each codex covers the 'characters' in that army. And until GW gets around to doing FAQs again, point them at the old SW FAQ on Wolf Guard and ask what has changed.

We play this in the very same manner. We had discussions about it and with only one vote against it counting as troops, it was implemented in our ruleset.

A Royal Court is a HQ choice. A Cryptek joining another unit, however, is not part of the Royal Court as it no longer is part of said unit. It now is part of the unit it chose to join. The rules explicitely say that the Cryptek no longer is part of the Royal Court:

Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court.

(Codex: Necrons (2011), p. 90)

A Cryptek that joined another unit is not part of the Royal Court, it therefore is no longer a HQ choice. It belongs to the unit it chose to join and gains its status. Joining troops therefore gets them OS.

If their unit gets reduced to 1 single member, and it being the Cryptek, the unit is not destroyed as the Cryptek is the last living (well..."living"...it's a Necron after all) member. It is still allowed its Ever Living roll, as this is part of the model's profile and does not, in any way, relate to the HQ status it used to have.

 Sigvatr wrote:

A Cryptek that joined another unit is not part of the Royal Court, it therefore is no longer a HQ choice. It belongs to the unit it chose to join and gains its status. Joining troops therefore gets them OS.

The Cryptek is still a HQ choice. Why is it not a HQ choice anymore? Just because it's not part of the Royal Court, it is not "therefore is no longer a HQ choice". Again, I ask for page numbers. How am I going to learn when all someone says is "it's in the codex". Again nothing has been proven. I can't verify that anyone is saying. Not trying to be daft, trying to learn and if I am going to play this way, will need to prove it then.

Again, where in the BRB or codex does it say "A unit is no longer the choice of where it was originally and now becomes another choice of the unit it joined."? I am great full you guys are trying to help me out, but again, no proof has been provided. I believe 40K is a permissive rules set. It has to tell you that you can be able to do something so where does it say the Cryptek becomes troops when the codex says it belongs in the HQ slot but doesn't take up a slot. Where is the permissive rule that says, Cryptek looses it's HQ status and becomes troops?

What am I going to say? It's in the Necron codex and I am right, you are wrong? Page numbers and where to look please.

Davor wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

A Cryptek that joined another unit is not part of the Royal Court, it therefore is no longer a HQ choice. It belongs to the unit it chose to join and gains its status. Joining troops therefore gets them OS.

The Cryptek is still a HQ choice. Why is it not a HQ choice anymore? Just because it's not part of the Royal Court, it is not "therefore is no longer a HQ choice".

Because it's not part of the unit that is the HQ choice, it's part of the unit that is a Troop choice. How is it an HQ choice?

Again, I ask for page numbers. How am I going to learn when all someone says is "it's in the codex". Again nothing has been proven. I can't verify that anyone is saying. Not trying to be daft, trying to learn and if I am going to play this way, will need to prove it then.

We've quoted it. Repeatedly. At this point I have to assume you don't own the Codex: Necrons

Again, where in the BRB or codex does it say "A unit is no longer the choice of where it was originally and now becomes another choice of the unit it joined."? I am great full you guys are trying to help me out, but again, no proof has been provided. I believe 40K is a permissive rules set. It has to tell you that you can be able to do something so where does it say the Cryptek becomes troops when the codex says it belongs in the HQ slot but doesn't take up a slot. Where is the permissive rule that says, Cryptek looses it's HQ status and becomes troops?

What am I going to say? It's in the Necron codex and I am right, you are wrong? Page numbers and where to look please.

Royal Court entry in the Army List part of the Necron codex. I don't have a page number because my books are elsewhere.

Davor wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

A Cryptek that joined another unit is not part of the Royal Court, it therefore is no longer a HQ choice. It belongs to the unit it chose to join and gains its status. Joining troops therefore gets them OS.

The Cryptek is still a HQ choice. Why is it not a HQ choice anymore? Just because it's not part of the Royal Court, it is not "therefore is no longer a HQ choice".

How does picking units work in 40k? Do you buy a unit model-for-model or do you buy an entire unit? A Necron Warrior does not have OS. Its unit has OS. A Necron Warrior is not a Troops choice. A Necron Warrior unit is a Troops choice. A Crpytek is not a HQ choice. A Royal Court is a HQ choice. If you remove a Cryptek from the Royal Court, it no longer is part of the Royal Court and thus no longer is a HQ unit.

Again, I ask for page numbers. How am I going to learn when all someone says is "it's in the codex". Again nothing has been proven. I can't verify that anyone is saying. Not trying to be daft, trying to learn and if I am going to play this way, will need to prove it then.

You did not see the rules quote with an ACTUAL PAGE NUMBER in my previous post apparently...

Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court.

(Codex: Necrons (2011), p. 90)

I am great full you guys are trying to help me out, but again, no proof has been provided.

You are not looking for help, you are looking for affirmation for your very own personal view that interferes with the rules.

"Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list..."

Could you bold the part that says it changes its Battlefield Role?

 CrownAxe wrote:
He is specifically a part of the warrior squad. Crypteks can't even choose to leave like an IC can. They are a part of the unit for all rules purposes and that includes objective secured

That's quite ironic because unlike a Cryptek, the IC-rule actually states that they are part of the unit for all rules purposes

rigeld2 wrote:
The Cryptek joins the unit. It's part of the unit. Please cite permission to treat him as something other than part of the unit he joined.
If you think you have an argument based on rules, that's cool, but you should support it with actual, I don't know, rules. That's cool.

How about you cite permission to change his Battlefield Role from HQ to Troops?

BRB: "Certain rules can alter a unit’s Battlefield Role, changing it, for example, from a Fast Attack unit to a Troops unit. If a unit changes its Battlefield Role due to such a rule, it maintains its new role for the entirety of the game."

Q: Does the Royal Court have a rule that alters his Battlefield Role when he joins a unit of Troops?
A: No.

Royal Court members automatically become Troops because they don't have the IC special rule. The IC USR has a written exception in the rules because it is a unit on its own already due to being IC. Non-IC models are not allowed to form a unit on their own.