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Ok so alot of chaos player whine that because chaos don't have ATSKNF along with lacking a few bit and bobs are inferior to SM.

I personally don't think this is the case, I've got a BA army and Nurgle themed CSM army and i can't say that in any of my games (with either side) has the game been won or lost due to that fairly insignificant rule.

so aside from the lack of ATSKNF and not a whole lot of plasma cannons, no grav guns, no chapter tactics ect. I can't say that any aspect seems to glaringly demonstrate superiority for either of these once battle brothers.... Chaos are cheaper and get alot more unit variety, SM are more expensive and get a fancy rule +some fancy weaponry/vehicles.....

Any1 got anything to add I'd be interested to hear (and please don't reference 2nd... it's gone, chaos were broken, you miss winning because you rocked up, we get it, move on)

I have played both CSM and SM in my time and in terms of fun.. I have a lot more when playing with my CSM.. the lack of ATSKNF doesn't bother me at all

Playing against marines and chaos as guard the twenty marine blob that choas has access to seems pretty scary, although i have never seen one.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Playing against marines and chaos as guard the twenty marine blob that choas has access to seems pretty scary, although i have never seen one.

thats because to run one you'd have to run it as a foot blob. which isn't a very good choice for any marine army

CSM also get Cultists and the Helbrute dataslate too!

The main reason people aren't fans of the codex is due to the OTT cost for certain units (Thousand Sons, Possessed, Chosen, Warp Talons etc). The current meta isn't ideal for CC (but it can be done) as well. Many of the CSM players don't seem to be fans of the codex specifically due to the Decepticons as well.

BrianDavion wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Playing against marines and chaos as guard the twenty marine blob that choas has access to seems pretty scary, although i have never seen one.

thats because to run one you'd have to run it as a foot blob. which isn't a very good choice for any marine army

I run foot blobs all the time, and they are t3 5+, you just have to play it like a guard foot blob

BrianDavion wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Playing against marines and chaos as guard the twenty marine blob that choas has access to seems pretty scary, although i have never seen one.

thats because to run one you'd have to run it as a foot blob. which isn't a very good choice for any marine army

Chaos Spartan Assault Tank. Holds 25 Models. Laugh as your opponents cry.

No literally, people complain about this for eons. "25 Chaos infantry with Power Armor in an assault vehicle?! Man that's OP. I'll take my Trip-Tide elsewhere."

But MAN is it every fun to unload those suckers on some tasty fish heads! lol

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Chaos Spartan Assault Tank. Holds 25 Models. Laugh as your opponents cry.

No literally, people complain about this for eons. "25 Chaos infantry with Power Armor in an assault vehicle?! Man that's OP. I'll take my Trip-Tide elsewhere."

But MAN is it every fun to unload those suckers on some tasty fish heads! lol

This. Bothered to run a full unit of Possessed Marines the one time I proxied a Spartan, and damn but it was funny.

@OP, Yeah I agree ATSKNF isn't a big deal. In exchange we can mark our models and give 'em CCW for cheap. Plus we have better psykers, DPs, and Oblits, Spawn and dinobots while all we're missing out on is drop pods, sternguard, a few boring tanks and flyers that aren't the heldrake..

I think that SM are better than CSM but not because of ATSKNF, but because they have much better supporting units.

Supporting HQs: Guys like Vulkan provide re-rolls for melta are much better than some 200 point PF/LC lord IMO. Big expensive HQs are frequently bested by more support based HQs in competitive play from what I've seen.
More transports: Drop pods, Storm Ravens, Razorbacks, and three variants of land raiders. Not much else to say here. Just good stuff.
Chapter Tactics: Really no reason CSM shouldn't have this. Have chapters and warbands just like SM
Much better Anti-Air: CSM have: Heldrakes with Autocannons, and Havocs with ML w/ Flakk, which is 175 points. Ouch! SM have storm talons, stalkers, and that other ground AA tank, in addition to Storm Ravens.

The bigger beef I think people have with CSM is they're all about a combination of close range firepower and melee combat, so they should have superior supporting units to the SM Codex, but in fact they have LESS, for some reason.

 l1ttlej wrote:
Ok so alot of chaos player whine that because chaos don't have ATSKNF along with lacking a few bit and bobs are inferior to SM.

I personally don't think this is the case, I've got a BA army and Nurgle themed CSM army and i can't say that in any of my games (with either side) has the game been won or lost due to that fairly insignificant rule.

so aside from the lack of ATSKNF and not a whole lot of plasma cannons, no grav guns, no chapter tactics ect. I can't say that any aspect seems to glaringly demonstrate superiority for either of these once battle brothers.... Chaos are cheaper and get alot more unit variety, SM are more expensive and get a fancy rule +some fancy weaponry/vehicles.....

Any1 got anything to add I'd be interested to hear (and please don't reference 2nd... it's gone, chaos were broken, you miss winning because you rocked up, we get it, move on)

The problem with the cheaper claim is that they aren't really cheaper. CSM as a standard cost one point less. Problem is, due to being required to take a sergeant of CC, the unit ends up costing more than a standard force of marines unless it's a unit of 10 when it is the same cost as a standard marine force. It only becomes cheaper on 11+. Problem is that doesn't give you more weapons. Oh, and can't take vehicles for the most part. BA are frankly out of date so I'm using Vanilla Marines. For one point extra, the SM gets chapter tactics and ATSKNF. For just a single point, it's impressive. CSM get a special rule that actually is more of a negative than a positive and the options are an illusion. Most of the icons are horrendous and that's without paying attention to how they can be sniped. Problem with marks is most aren't that good. Really the only one of note is the nurgle one and, by the time you spend it, it's better to use plague marines. You can take a CCW but then you cost equal to a standard marine. SM actually have more unit variety in the grand scheme of things, particularly when you include chapter tactics.

From a technical standpoint, a catch with csm is the only ones to note are 2nd, 3, 3.5, 4, and 6th. 2nd was broken good, 3 was dull, 3.5 was terribly balanced both externally and internally, 4 was bland and uninspired, and 6th really didn't change anything for or against. Tzeentch at large sucks, Khorne isn't much better, Slaanesh is barely worth (noise marines. The mark itself really isn't that helpful), and Nurgle is really the only good choice. Oblits lose some of their uniqueness with things like Centurions coming into existence. It's kind of funny that they almost seemed to go out of their way to make them even more similar. Internal balance sucks, Heldrakes went from good to broken to gradually losing steam but still broken to nerfed beneath their original good. Still a nasty choice though. Oblits are still good, bikers are ok, spawn are ok (good with a juggerlord. Problem being juggerlord doesn't bring nurgle), cultists are good (although they are basically just inferior guardsman), CSM don't really get great ally choices. SM get to BB with all of the Imperium. CSM? You can BB with daemons except daemons can't mix units. They actually did damage to the cultist design you could do with IG. Besides that, many of the hqs underperform, dissapointments pop up, DP are jokes in many ways, preds are actually decent, plague marines are good, and a small few are good options. It's bland, it's dull, and it's not a good codex. Not internally or externally and feels more like a 4th edition codex than anything else. Another big fault is that CSM lean to assault in an edition that really doesn't like assault. Not to say it can't be done, just it isn't making it any easier.

Hmm I think you're right in saying CSM lean towards assault and arguably fair better at it.

Biggest problem I've found (with friends who play chaos and complain) is they try to play them as "spikey" marines instead of using them to the potential they are designed for.... if you hang back and use firepower to try blast away the enemy and have 5 man squads in rhinos capping points you're prob gonna loose...

as for the chapter tactics i feel that chapter tactics are exactly that; tacics developed through the smaller chapters being more defined as they've had to adapt to specific tactics due to smaller numbers (soprry about the clumbsy sentence but you get the just of it).....

CSM I feel don't do that they just throw masses of bodies at things (atleast this is what i've found more or less fluff wise) hence "warbands" and are supported by elite warped infantry (ie. the plague marines, 1000 sons, zerkers & noise marines).

also a side note I like daemon princes (personal preference) and daemon allies I've found to be a nice compliment to a CSM list.

I don't play either army (though I've played a lot of games against and alongside them), so this is the view of an outsider.

From what I've seen, SMs have a better and stronger book.

The CSM book just seems to have awful internal balance. It's filled with units that are either outright bad (Possessed, Thousand Sons, Mutilators etc.), or else compete with better options (e.g. Khorne Berserkers compared to CSMs with Mark of Khorne).

And, nurgle units/marks just seem outright better than their equivalents in virtually every situation.

They also seem to have a much worse selection of special/heavy weapons (in relation to SMs), and fewer supporting units. They also have a much worse selection of transports - with no Razorback equivalent, limited to the worst Land Raider type (which lacks PotMS), and no drop pods (which are amazing in this edition).

They have more combat-focussed stuff... but that's hardly a good thing. Combat has been dreadful for two editions now, and they don't really have anything to make up for that.

I'm sure they can make some decent armies, but the book just doesn't seem very versatile. Really, it seems like you're reliant on a few specific units to pull the rest of your army through.

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 l1ttlej wrote:
Hmm I think you're right in saying CSM lean towards assault and arguably fair better at it.

Biggest problem I've found (with friends who play chaos and complain) is they try to play them as "spikey" marines instead of using them to the potential they are designed for.... if you hang back and use firepower to try blast away the enemy and have 5 man squads in rhinos capping points you're prob gonna loose...

as for the chapter tactics i feel that chapter tactics are exactly that; tacics developed through the smaller chapters being more defined as they've had to adapt to specific tactics due to smaller numbers (soprry about the clumbsy sentence but you get the just of it).....

CSM I feel don't do that they just throw masses of bodies at things (atleast this is what i've found more or less fluff wise) hence "warbands" and are supported by elite warped infantry (ie. the plague marines, 1000 sons, zerkers & noise marines).

also a side note I like daemon princes (personal preference) and daemon allies I've found to be a nice compliment to a CSM list.

The catch is CSM aren't really like that. They are a complex mess. You have certain factions that are hyper elite, certain that just throw bodies, certain that are pure one legion, some that are warbands composed of a single legion, hodge podges, SM chapters fallen to chaos, etc. CSM are one of the most varied forces in the game simply because they represent the recent traitor to the veteran of the long war. The thing with chapter tactics is that this has been their iconic strategy since they were massive legions as well. In all honesty, every faction should have a "chapter tactics" format. It's charming and really works better than the old doctrines format. Problem with fluff also comes from the fact that usually the CSM are the badies the Imperium kicks and they become saturday night villains for that.

I just wish we had better deployment options. There really isn't much to get CSM in the thick. One, and the worst variant, Land Raider, a rhino, a random warlord trait, and two named characters count as our only real ways to deploy differently. Oh and terminator deepstrike that isn't safe of course. But yeah, they have some shooting oriented picks but there is a very obvious favoring for close combat in the codex.

Daemon Princes are odd. The problem with them is that they are a T5 monster that really only gets good when you tack on the points. Fragile, less tanky than a riptide, vulnerable to being killed, almost entirely based to kill in close combat, etc. They really only work because of the wings upgrade (which got nerfed), biomancy and telep, and the black mace. Sadly this also means that Khorne is simply not worth it. A nice edge is the new edition makes smash one hit though. Drawback is the same hits DP. Overall, not bad but many dissapointments. That and the becoming a DP by the random table is infuriating. As per daemons, I didn't mean to say they are bad. Catch is, Daemons were, and still likely are, better than them so they easily bump them up in power. Plus it's fitting. Honestly i wish the days when chaos had synergy.

Ah, and as somebody noted, there is almost no AA in the codex.

One of the best ways to start this fight is by claiming CSM players are only upset because the book is weak and they want an easy win; the 3.5 book was removed almost 7 years ago. Judging by the ragestorm spiralling since then, I can't imagine that many of the 3.5 players are left. Your average CSM player probably doesn't come from his mountain on high, riding upon past glories. He comes from the same Codex released 2 editions in a row that turned one of the most diverse armies in the background down into Gimp Marines and the 4 stereotype brothers.

It's not a power thing; any monkey can dial up for a swarm of Zombies, Obliterators, Spawn and the ex-Drake. The closest we have to a power struggle is when entire Legions are redundant because their single posterchild unit is utterly worthless within the confines of their only book. This isn't Codex: Space Wolves where the Chapter twists and flavours are spread over the whole book; Thousand Sons get a single nod in an almost unplayably bad unit. They are bad for the exact same reasons they were bad in the last book, because apparently nobody noticed. They are the one nod to the Legion among an army of 6+ invulnerables, the one source of psychic sergeants and Inferno Bolts, and they are just worthless.

Similarly the point costs seem like a hollow boast because not only does that single point go really, absurdly far, but often the CSM unit is no cheaper (Or even manages to be more expensive). A unit of 5 CSM is more expensive than 5 Tacticals because while the Tacticals get to enjoy ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads, the CSM player gets to spend 5pts on a Sergeant with +1A and a need to throw himself on the enemies blade. While the CSM player can choose to spend 3pts on the Mark of Nurgle, Tacticals can just flip a switch for 6+ FNP along with their armoury of Grav and Plasma Cannons, Razorbacks and Drop Pods, or Stormravens and Crusaders. The Loyalist gets to pay peanuts for his 2+ save and 3+ invul on every HQ he fancies, while the CSM players gets the joy of randomly rolling and being forced into entirely new books for that elusive armour.

Overall the CSM book doesn't feel like an army; it feels like a ragtag bunch of individual units that have turned up all at the same time. There is no tactical finesse or synergy, it is simply throwing enough junk in the same direction that some of it will make it through. Units are not taken because of what they offer the army, they are taken because they are simply better than the competition at beating faces.
The SM player gets his pick of transports, each with their own strengths and unique applications. "Do I fly inmy 'Raven, or shall I use the Pod? Do I want to shoot from the Rhino, or simply take the Razor for my big gun?". Meanwhile the CSM player gets "Rhino? Yes." as his choice, or units that simply need the Land Raider because they are completely non-functional without one. Berzerkers don't take the Raider because it is a tactical choice or because it offers something unique to the game. They take it because it is the only way you are ever going to recover the payment on your slow melee infantry and to decline one is suicide.

The army is slow and predictable. There is no Scouting or Outflanking or Infiltrating; best we can manage is a D3 Warlord trait, because it just wouldn't suit CSM without swinging wildly in effectiveness based on a single dice roll. Every single army the Codex can make will be based on 5 different variations of the same Power Armour unit, or on Guardsmen that lost their armour, guns and Orders while still costing the same per unit.
It doesn't have meaningful anti-air or the ability to win a long-ranged firefight. It doesn't have enough access to transports to deliver an abundance of the same slow, expensive melee marines. It doesn't have any unit-synergies or capacity for thought. All it offers is a choice of different spins on the same unit, of which one is always the clear winner, and then a bunch of non-functional specialists that are all uniquely awful.

It feels like a rotten core with all the flavour coming from its 'spin' units. Nobody ever tells you to take more of the foundations, never to take more Chaos Marines or Raptors or Terminators, because they are just expensive, bad versions of the Loyalists. All the flavour is in the Daemonic bits like Obliterators and Fiends, and then the fluff goes to great lengths to tell us which ones we aren't allowed to take because we chose the wrong Legion.

This rant is probably longer than I intended it to be.

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 l1ttlej wrote:
Ok so alot of chaos player whine that because chaos don't have ATSKNF along with lacking a few bit and bobs are inferior to SM.

I personally don't think this is the case, I've got a BA army and Nurgle themed CSM army and i can't say that in any of my games (with either side) has the game been won or lost due to that fairly insignificant rule.

so aside from the lack of ATSKNF and not a whole lot of plasma cannons, no grav guns, no chapter tactics ect. I can't say that any aspect seems to glaringly demonstrate superiority for either of these once battle brothers.... Chaos are cheaper and get alot more unit variety, SM are more expensive and get a fancy rule +some fancy weaponry/vehicles.....

Any1 got anything to add I'd be interested to hear (and please don't reference 2nd... it's gone, chaos were broken, you miss winning because you rocked up, we get it, move on)

The difference between a basic tac squad and a basic CSM unit is fairly minimal, it's more the armies as a whole. Also keep in mind if you 're playing a nurgle army that Plague Marines are fearless so the lack of ATSKNF doesn't hurt as much.

That said, the SM army list has so many more capabilities, versatility, and meaningful customizability that really just put the CSM's to shame. CSM's have a couple crutch units and a whole lot of naff in a book that feels like "Chaos Shareware".

its very easy to get fearless with csm anyway. I think the main problem is the limited builds with csm, ie if you want to have a chance you need to go nurgle, plague marines, heldrakes and obliterators. Given that many csm units are made with cc in mind, both rules and fluff wise, this is (still) a shooting edition and we lack the longer range options (centurions, whirlwinds, land speeders, storm ravens/flyers) that sm have. Again though, I have more fun playing csm

To make it simple, CSM are upset because they look at the SM codex with its chapter tactics and great supporting units and see what their codex could be. With SM options they could create a really fluffy legion or warband.

Edit: Somehow I missed Mozzamanx post! What he said...

Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, whatever's next...

It seems like GW is giving CSM players their "Chapter Tactics" by way of $50 supplements.

I wouldn't be surprised if over the course of 7th we see alot of books like Night Lords, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, etc.


I was immensely surprised at how little flavor there was in the CSM codex. Just basically 4 different units representing 4 entire Legions. You want other stuff, Mr. Tzeentch? Here's a dinobot...paint it blue.

even the supplement books don't really add much of anything noteworthy in terms of theme/subfaction, it's a couple extra wargear items largely and that's it....

:/

Yea, while I like the supplements I feel they are absurdly overpriced.

But, but...Black Legion gets Veterans of the Long...oh, that's right, they have to pay for something that any other legion could decide to pay for. (I do like the nasty Terminators though)

Crimson Slaughter seems at least like a step in the right direction giving everybody Fear, though its not terribly useful.

I'm in over my head here in that although I familiar with the concept of Chapter Tactics, I'm not too familiar with how they work when compared to CSM supplements.

 vipoid wrote:
I don't play either army (though I've played a lot of games against and alongside them), so this is the view of an outsider.

From what I've seen, SMs have a better and stronger book.

The CSM book just seems to have awful internal balance. It's filled with units that are either outright bad (Possessed, Thousand Sons, Mutilators etc.), or else compete with better options (e.g. Khorne Berserkers compared to CSMs with Mark of Khorne).

And, nurgle units/marks just seem outright better than their equivalents in virtually every situation.

They also seem to have a much worse selection of special/heavy weapons (in relation to SMs), and fewer supporting units. They also have a much worse selection of transports - with no Razorback equivalent, limited to the worst Land Raider type (which lacks PotMS), and no drop pods (which are amazing in this edition).

They have more combat-focussed stuff... but that's hardly a good thing. Combat has been dreadful for two editions now, and they don't really have anything to make up for that.

I'm sure they can make some decent armies, but the book just doesn't seem very versatile. Really, it seems like you're reliant on a few specific units to pull the rest of your army through.

This, basically..

What the codex really is, is basically Codex: Kill-Team, try a small squad out with the fluffy stuff like the mutation table.. Suddenly they become quite nice..

My problem lies with what I believe the direction the codex was taken in as I believe they intended the codex to be a CC orientated one rather than a shooty one, and that isn't great when the rules are aimed towards a shooty edition..

In all honesty I think if we had some sort of plastic drop pod, such as a Deathclaw warped up, I and many others would feel a lot better about our codex, as well as an upgrade to give our vehicles the assault vehicle special rule as well as replacing whatever the Demonic Possession rule with the Daemon rule and we would feel a lot happy about our codex imo..

pax_imperialis wrote:
its very easy to get fearless with csm anyway.

Fearless CSM? There are two ways:
Take Fabius Bile as an HQ, and get one squad of fearless CSM
or
Give one model in a squad the Icon of Vengeance for 25 points.
Then watch that model get sniped out first. No more fearless.

So pigeonhole yourself into building an army that can make use of a specialized HQ, or piss away 25 points on an icon that will get taken out on the first engagement.

so aside from the lack of ATSKNF and not a whole lot of plasma cannons, no grav guns, no chapter tactics ect.

You answered your own question.

Let's add to th list a cc army with no way to get there, a codex that punishes the player for using it with the "chanpion of chaos" rule, a new unit costed on a 5th ed paradigm with rules right out of 4th ed (hi Warp Talons), lack of internal balance, and lack of synergy .... I could on and on ...

The book certainly has strengths, but basically, Phil Kelly made us some really cool custom bullets and then gave us no gun from which to fire them ....

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pax_imperialis wrote:
its very easy to get fearless with csm anyway. I think the main problem is the limited builds with csm, ie if you want to have a chance you need to go nurgle, plague marines, heldrakes and obliterators. Given that many csm units are made with cc in mind, both rules and fluff wise, this is (still) a shooting edition and we lack the longer range options (centurions, whirlwinds, land speeders, storm ravens/flyers) that sm have. Again though, I have more fun playing csm

How's it easy to give fearless? Chaos Lords, HQs that have it (granted if they die it goes), an overpriced icon that can be sniped out and makes them cost more in most cases than SM, or just going for Plague Marines or other cult troops which level of ease depends on which cult it is. And you forgot the cultists lad! Also forgot the lack of any real good AA

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No Chaos drop pods is a fething abomination. and not a cool, chaos-y abomination.