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Whatever that quad autocannon AA vehicle is. That was Soooo powerful it's a good thing GW nerfed the crop out of it. We dodged that bullet. Now everything is nice and balanced.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Whatever that quad autocannon AA vehicle is. That was Soooo powerful it's a good thing GW nerfed the crop out of it. We dodged that bullet. Now everything is nice and balanced.

The Hydra? It was a very good single-purpose unit before, and they destroyed it, I haven't seen one on a table since the new book came out.

Makumba wrote:
Serpents should either be tanks or be resilient transports, not both at the same time.

It wouldn' be a problem if the Serpent was costeed like a landraider equivalent for Eldar and then a rhino equivalent vehicle should be added for aroud 100 points with no weapons other than perhaps a suriken cannon or TL catapults.

Oh and so far not turning into the Eldar flame thread some posters feared. Hooray for that.

Although, no longer in the codex, I would have said the Doom of Malantai. A 90 point model that by himself repeatedly wiped out more than 10 times his cost.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

I just had a great unclean one, with iron arm decimate my council of waaagh! A 1100 point unit
Made me so sad

Godhammer Pattern Land Raiders are overcosted for what they do. They have long-range guns but need to get close for their role. I'd rather have a Predator Annihilator and a couple of Rhinos.

And Vanguard Veterans.

And, if we're allowed to go back to 5th Edition: Penal Legionnaires were absolute gak. I've never seen a unit fielded in my life.

Thousand Sons (particularily their 58 pt aspiring sorcerers) say hi. The dark apostle gets a mention here too. Sergeant Telion costs a pretty penny for what he brings, and who needs WS5 on a backfield model with no specialized close combat weaponry and a 4+ save?

CSM 13ppm vs Grey Hunters (new codex) 14ppm

Same gear, same stats. Only GH get ATSKNF, Counterattack, Acute Senses. To get counterattack (+rage) on the CSM it's 2ppm for MoK. big lols

ATSKNF is probably the most undercosted thing ingame, pretty much free for fearless++.

BladeSwinga wrote:
Thousand Sons (particularily their 58 pt aspiring sorcerers) say hi. The dark apostle gets a mention here too. Sergeant Telion costs a pretty penny for what he brings, and who needs WS5 on a backfield model with no specialized close combat weaponry and a 4+ save?

I really wish the Dark Apostle had the option to take a bike. That alone would really boost his standing.

Special weapons having universal costs.

Why does a Guardsman pay the same points for a power weapon/fist as a space marine - despite being both weaker and less survivable?

Why do 1-wound sergeants pay the same points for power weapons (of all kinds) as HQs - even though they have fewer attacks, worse WS and are just much less survivable?

DE Weapons:
Agoniser - Not a poison weapon, and now only AP3. Sigh. Our glass-cannon seems to be lacking ammunition.

Electrocorrosive Whip - Does anyone ever use this? I feel you could knock off 75% of its price and it would still never see play.

Flesh Gauntlet - Is there some sort of design code whereby crap weapons have to cost 20pts? I can't think of many situations where this would be better than Venom Blades (and it costs 4 times as much), and even fewer where poison-shooting wouldn't work even better. Still, at least it's available on the combat beast that is the Haemonculus...

Mindphase Gauntlet - An initiative-based weapon that's exclusive to I4 models (And the Haem. Ancient). Also very specific in its targets, and doesn't actually improve your combat abilities one iota. At least it's cheap, I guess.

Djin Blade - Combine with soul-trap and you can create possibly the only HQ in the game capable of instant-deathing himself. I'm not sure what particular issue that ability solves, but it's bound to solve something.

Blasters/Dark Lances - Can we please stop pretending that 'Lance' is a good rule? That way these things might actually end up reasonably costed - instead of being overpriced garbage that devour all other anti-vehicle weapons.

Heat Lances - Well, good try, only 2pts more than the far superior marine meltas. But I guess these have Lance so must automatically be better... even though they lose 2pts of strength in the bargain (meaning they will, at best, equal marine meltas).


Necron Weapons:

Voidblade - why does this cost as much as a warscythe? Why does it cost *more* than a warscythe on destroyer lords?

Transdimensional Beamer - do you feel that your wraiths are too mobile? Would you like a short-range weapon that requires them to remain stationary? Well look no further!

 Desubot wrote:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Wraiths.

I just cannot get mine to stand up without like a dozen 40mm washers on the base.

Damnit!

I wanted to crack that joke :(

HA! The yolks!

Grey Knight nonterminator units. Generally 6 points more then similar units from other SM codices but with a nemesis force weapon that laughs at power weapons, stormbolters, brotherhood of psykers, anti psyker grenades, aegis suit, and hatred for daemons.. Makes my genestealers cry in envy.

Dreadknight. Simple obscene for the points. Especially considering what it can do to other MC, especially those without an invulnerable save.

Tyrannofex, for 195 points base it doesn't pack anywhere near enough ranged firepower, is massively weak in close combat for the points, no ability to deepstrike to quickly bring its medium ranged (and not wonderful) weapons to bear, and lacks any ranged AP3 or better ranged weapons. Compared to Riptides and Wraithknights is grossly deficient.

Tervigon, for 190 points, again no significant ranged fire, often spawns only one or two broods before loosing the ability, and again, is not very good in close combat for a 190 points model. Just sits there and provides synapse and maybe some a psychic power if it got a decent one.

And because I play mostly against SM, who cannot be overrun, I will put up the Haruspex. For a CC specialist it needs either a higher WS, significantly higher, or more attacks. With crushing claws its good against vehicles, but all tyranid MC already are, and carnifex are still better for far less points. (Although this guy does make me think the codex might have been written knowing about the change to smash rule in 7th). Its potential extra attacks on charge are good, but with its low WS often miss. Against troop that can be overrun, its not horrible, although its average initiative, your still going to need luck to crush them. If the creature gained a wound for each model it removed in CC, then I think it would be more worth fielding.

(All opinions based on playing 6th ed, not 7th)

PS, I agree standard terminators need either something to make them more durable or greater firepower. Back in 2nd edition they were very expensive but extremely hard to kill without heavy weapons. If you look at how the points have come down standard SM were 35, and are now 14. Terminators were 60 and are now 40, and the new armor save system makes them significantly easier to kill. Especially since when you figure in that you only get an invulnerable save or armor save now, you got both back in 2nd. That change in point ratios, in my opinion, is why termies come across as being very weak now a days, since the stats otherwise remain the same.

Spell familiar. Omgwtfbbq what my Farseers or Librarians would give for that.

And Tigris. How is he less than 200 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SM bikes are undercoated, ASM are overcosted.

Serpents and Windriders I don't think points increases are the right fix for.

Yriel. Went from a decently priced close combat beast with poor saves to an overpriced mediocre close combat guy with poor saves AND rerolls his own successful saves.

Riptide. Shooting MCs should never have 2+ saves unless they have another disadvantage. Shooting MCs should not have an inv save. Shooting MCs should not have jet/jump packs. Its firepower is about right for its point value, but its resiliency is in the 300 point range. Should have been costed ~250 like the wraithknight is.

Serpents and Guardian Jetbikes i would agree are both too cheap. I took at least 3 squads of 3 jetbikes back when they were 22 points per model and thought they were great.

Banshees... yeah

Tyranids: 70% of the codex

Triarch Preatorians.

A 40pt CC unit with 1 attack apiece. And I2. And nothing but a 3+ armour save to protect them.

 vipoid wrote:
Triarch Preatorians.

A 40pt CC unit with 1 attack apiece. And I2. And nothing but a 3+ armour save to protect them.

To be fair, they are jump inf and S5/T5. And they can get S6 pistols to give them 2A rending entropic strike. They do pale in comparison to Wraiths, but so do most units. They should have been WS5 2A though to make both wep options more appealing and give them some advantage over wraiths.

 zephoid wrote:

To be fair, they are jump inf and S5/T5.

Really doesn't mean much for a 40pt model.

 zephoid wrote:
And they can get S6 pistols to give them 2A rending entropic strike.

At the cost of AP2 attacks. Still probably better, but neither exactly feels like you're getting your points worth.

 zephoid wrote:
They do pale in comparison to Wraiths, but so do most units.

Hence why I didn't compare them to wraiths.

 zephoid wrote:
They should have been WS5 2A though to make both wep options more appealing and give them some advantage over wraiths.

I think WS4 would have been fine - what they need is more defence. Wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save and 2 wounds apiece (and can actually strike first), Praetorians have just a 3+ save and will srike last against virtually everything in the game - assuming they even make it to combat.

Actually, scratch that, what they need is to not be 40 sodding points. They're slightly stronger and tougher than assault marines... but cost more than twice as much. Not a good place to be.

Rumbleguts wrote:

Tyrannofex, for 195 points base it doesn't pack anywhere near enough ranged firepower, is massively weak in close combat for the points, no ability to deepstrike to quickly bring its medium ranged (and not wonderful) weapons to bear, and lacks any ranged AP3 or better ranged weapons. Compared to Riptides and Wraithknights is grossly deficient.

T-fex is only 175 points. With e-grubs 185. Agreed that it is not that great in close combat, but its Acid Spray Torrent weapon is plenty good against Xenos armies. Definitely not "the worst."

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

Everyone will list that one model that made them lose the game, or the other model that everyone loves to hate. Threads like this are the worst.

Yeah, the Tyrannofex really doesn't seem bad in the new book.

It's expensive, but it's also a 6-wound MC with a 2+ save. Not really the sort of thing I'd want to see becoming cheap.

It might not have much in the way of low-ap weapons, but it can still put out a lot of ignores-cover wounds on a squad.

It's not amazing in combat, but it's still a MC - so it can threaten any vehicle (and should kill most without needing to Smash). Also, even if it can't kill a squad in a reasonable time frame, it can still tie one up in combat. 6 T6 wounds with a 2+ save are rarely easy to remove. And, because of Fearless, you have to remove every last one (you can't make it flee).

It doesn't excel at much (save perhaps for destroying large units of fragile infantry), but it's a decent enough all-rounder. And, certainly much better now than it was in the last book.

All that said, I'm still amazed that the Fleshborer Hive is considered an upgrade. Hey, Helldrake players, how would you like to pay 5pts to upgrade your Bale Flamer to a Hurricane Bolter?

Yes, my mistake, tyrannofexes (or should that be tyrannofi?) are only 175, not 195.

My beef about them aren't that they are not fairly tough, which they are. I don't want to seem them reduced in point cost, I want to seem them with at least one weapon that hurt guys with a 3+ armor save at range, since they are supposed to be a tyranid gunboat. A gunboat that doesn't have a weapon option that can penetrate what is one of the most common armor saves among armies out there (every SM chapter, tau crisis, many elder, SoB, etc) is not a very useful gunboat. I wish it had another weapon option to do this. The ability to take two main weapons would also have been useful, impossible to model which is probably why this would never happen, despite other nontyranid MC being able to.

I don't think the tyrannofex should be great in CC, its supposed to be a gunboat. Frankly I would be happy to see it with a WS of 2 if they gave it a BS of 4.

Another aspect I find vastly annoying is that the biomorphs are either defensive (regen, which I think is badly underpowered) or help when they assault/CC. A problem they share with hive guards. Yet they are not supposed to be assaulters. Not a single biomorph to allow them to reroll to hits or wounding on a ranged attack, that gives a ranged attack rend or shred or any such. Nothing to ignore nightfighting, although with their shorter ranged weapons that isn't as huge a problem. No way to give them interceptor or skyfire. Nothing that might allow them to increase range, or rate, of fire. Not even something that would allow them to run and shoot once per game. Hell, they could have at least allowed the thorax biomorph to be fired in addition to other weapons for the tyrannofex at least.

I suppose the real answer here is to simply use exocrines. Which is a great unit and a nice model. I just hate to see that awesome looking tyrannofex sitting on my shelf because I know against the units I keep running up against (Firesight Tau and SM variants) the tyrannofex tends to be a unit they can just ignore or tie up.

Tyrannofexes probably don't deserve to be a worse unit, certainly there are worse in the tyranid codex, but it sure feels like a unit with a lot of promise and very little output for the points.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I second Space Marine terminators, especially tactical termies. They are beyond useless, too slow and frail for close combat, to weak and short ranged to be effective shooting. Storm bolters need to be salvo 2/4 and all terminators need FNP or an extra wound (or both) to be worth the points cost.

I think all of the chaos greater daemons are over priced in comparison to other MC and FMC. They are still good, but with the nerfs to FMC, they don't perform to their price tag.

I think the Lord of Change is undercosted, even at 305pts for what he does...
2x Greater Rewards + 3 levels of Divination and guaranteed S8/ap2 initiative-swinging attacks is stupid good. Get Precog and laugh.

Maybe Papa Nurgle is a bit pricey due to his slug's pace movement, but both the Kipper & 'Thirster are fine for their costs and what they bring.

Now our Princes definitely get overcosted when piling on the upgrades. Wings + a pair of Psyker Lv's on a T5/5++ platform is squishy for not great return, unless you luck into specific powers. (and no Divination access hurts too)

I just had a great unclean one, with iron arm decimate my council of waaagh! A 1100 point unit
Made me so sad

So he killed 110 pts

Decimate means to kill one in ten.

Perhaps obliterate would fit better,and yes, GUO who get lucky can be very mean

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is going to end up being another serpent hater/fanboy thread. Putting my money on it.

Everyone will list that one model that made them lose the game, or the other model that everyone loves to hate. Threads like this are the worst.

Except that hasn't happened. Maybe try actually reading the thread.

Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

Agreed. Canoness, same price of a Chaos Lord. Let that sink in.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Overpriced Units:

Genestealers: They should be terrifying, but WS is vastly overpriced. Maybe if they had an extra attack and we're 12-13 points.

Banshees: I remember back before 6th, that when you did the math that scorpions were better 4,5,6+ save enemies, equal for 3+, but banshees were great against 2+ saves. Then 6th happened and their power swords could no longer perform against their ideal targets. they still did not fix them in the new Eldar codex (and then gave Eldar a plethora of ways to ignore armor saves with shooting).It's like they did not think it through.

And finally, the Canoness. She is so overcosted and is the only non special character HQ available to Sisters. She is the same cost as a Warboss! The Canoness and Tyranid Warrior Prime weep when looking at other HQ choices.

Agreed. Canoness, same price of a Chaos Lord. Let that sink in.

What. The. Heck.

 Happyjew wrote:
Although, no longer in the codex, I would have said the Doom of Malantai. A 90 point model that by himself repeatedly wiped out more than 10 times his cost.

Thanks for bringing up the traumatic memories. I thought I'd suppressed them by now. Still remember the guy who took 4 squads of genestealers with brood lords and outflanked them all, a squad of the special Ymgarl genestealers, and also took the Doom. You had the wonderful choice of using all your deployment zone and getting eaten by genestealers from outflank on turn 2 or clumping up in the middle 3 ft and getting the Doom dropped on your head turn 2, and addition to that no matter where you deployed you were going to get extra special genestealers charging at you from some random terrain piece turn 2 (gotta love being able to mess with reserve rolls). That kicked my butt so many times through 4th and 5th edition...

There's a reason I reflexively reach for Early Warning Overrides and Fusion Blasters on everything that can take them. I still worry that the Doom will crawl its way back into the codex from whatever hellpit it's currently lurking in.

Warp Talons are ridiculously over costed. Mutilators would be a bad deal if they gave you 5 points for fielding one (ok I kid but those units suck).

GW seems to assign point values at random.
A Penitent Engine is 85 points, but a Predator is 75?

Huh?