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It used to be boyz before toyz all the way...if half or more of your army wasnt made of boy blobs you were doing something wrong.

I feel thats gone now, as i rarely field more than 3 units (which is the minimum) anymore and find i dont even need more boyz than that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It used to be boyz before toyz all the way...if half or more of your army wasnt made of boy blobs you were doing something wrong.

I feel thats gone now, as i rarely field more than 3 units (which is the minimum) anymore and find i dont even need more boyz than that.

I agree. Seems like the thrust of the new codex is to alter this poll away from Boyz to Toyz (Like Mek Gunz)

Just a meta shift. Changes to KFF, points costs and game scenarios changed everything. Boys alone cant answer enough are are killed too quickly in a world of flyers eldar and tau.

Real shame. Still grateful for the grean tide formation and it has proved fairly effective in many games ive seen.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Just a meta shift. Changes to KFF, points costs and game scenarios changed everything. Boys alone cant answer enough are are killed too quickly in a world of flyers eldar and tau.

Real shame. Still grateful for the grean tide formation and it has proved fairly effective in many games ive seen.

It has little to do with shifting metas, and much to do with new sucky mob rule.

Ive found that the new mob rule isnt as detrimental as a lot of people make it out to be. Ya its an all around nerf but min most cases it still prevents you from breaking at the cost of a few S4 hits (boo hoo). Boys still hold things up in combat forever and absorb a ton of fire.

It's still leaning on Boyz before Toyz for me. I still bring at least 60 Boyz at the very least on each list. The PKs can answer so many things, and the sheer amount of bodies helps, though I'm often bringing them in units of 20 or so, not the max 30 like I used too. I KFF spam a lot now, and of course the ever useful Painboy seems to sneak into every list.

Though, I have to say I make the most use out of the Green Tide when it comes to Boyz. Even in 1850 lists, you can still bring a decent amount of toyz as well.

I don't really see myself bringing more toyz than Boyz in the long run. I'll bring Kanz, Big Gunz, Bikes, Kopters, Wagons and the Morkanaught, but those will only come after I've determined how many Boyz I'll need for my match up. (The benefit of prearranged games)

Boyz overall are still too important to overlook. Are they AS mandatory as before? I don't think so. But I'm a firm believer you're going to regret not bringing a bit more than you think you'll need. Even if it's just a few squads of Trukk Boyz in reserve for later.

im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I think it depends on how tough/numerous the toys are. If they're MANZ and battlewagons and big guns, less boyz are needed. Tankbustas, lootas, buggies etc. And you'll need some extra boyz to to hang around after all Dem paper thin toys get krumped

 Vineheart01 wrote:
im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I come across comments like this alot and I find it a strange opinion on the Mob rule. Mob rules sucks for everything EXCEPT large mobs of boyz. Here is the reasoning:
1.Orks have crappy LD throughout the codex. That means that they are failing alot of morale tests, the most important of them being pinning and 25% casualties.
2. Orks can "counter" this disadvantage via the mob rule but! unless you have more than 10 members in a unit you are still failing the test 67% or the time or 45% of the time if you have a bosspole in the unit. For something as crippling as failing a morale for fall back or pinning those are pretty big numbers.
3. Mobz of more that 10 only fail the morale test 16% of the time or 3% if they have a bosspole.
4. Detachments and formations from WAAAGH! Ghazgkull make it almost impossible to correct a failed test unless the mob is over 10 boyz (fail 84% or 70% with a bosspole)

The advantage of large mobs is now pretty clear and with that conclussion the failings of the ork codex are also apparent. The only squads that have a unit size of over 15 orks are Boyz squads and Stormboyz . Squads such as Burnas, Lootas, Manz, Nobz, Tankbustaz, Kommandos, Flashgitz, anything in a Trukk etc will always be under 10 orks or the first casualties (and indeed the ones that will force that crucial LD test) will put them there.

As an opponent the only thing I need to do is force enough LD tests, and blowing up a trukk or killing 5 orks is not a big deal.
As an ork player I have to find ways to cover my LD failings which can only really be done from the HQ slot and the warlord traits. Or play footsloggers.

 sn0zcumb3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I come across comments like this alot and I find it a strange opinion on the Mob rule. Mob rules sucks for everything EXCEPT large mobs of boyz. Here is the reasoning:
1.Orks have crappy LD throughout the codex. That means that they are failing alot of morale tests, the most important of them being pinning and 25% casualties.
2. Orks can "counter" this disadvantage via the mob rule but! unless you have more than 10 members in a unit you are still failing the test 67% or the time or 45% of the time if you have a bosspole in the unit. For something as crippling as failing a morale for fall back or pinning those are pretty big numbers.
3. Mobz of more that 10 only fail the morale test 16% of the time or 3% if they have a bosspole.

Actually, those numbers aren't big at all. Outright passing an LD7 test happens 58.33% of the time. With a single role of mob rule you get to passing 72.22% of all tests, with a boss pole you get to pass 81.48% of your tests. In comparison, LD8 passes 72.22% as well, LD9 passes 83.33% and LD7 with a reroll passes 82.64%. Basically a unit with a character and a boss poles is LD9 outside of combat and even better in combat - something that benefits small mobs a lot.

Besides, picking high numbers for your point and low numbers for your counterpoint is an easy way to spot a weak argument.

4. Detachments and formations from WAAAGH! Ghazgkull make it almost impossible to correct a failed test unless the mob is over 10 boyz (fail 84% or 70% with a bosspole)

True, unless you are fearless (Council of Waaagh, Bully Boyz, Big Boss Pole), consists of nothing but vehicles (dread mob, blitz brigade) or are made up of a huge mass of models anyways (red skull kommandoz, da vulcha skwad, green tide). Of course, you could pick small units with a Greater Waaagh! Detachment, but you can also field a Clan Raukan army without vehicles and then complain about the supplement not buffing your army.

The advantage of large mobs is now pretty clear and with that conclussion the failings of the ork codex are also apparent. The only squads that have a unit size of over 15 orks are Boyz squads and Stormboyz . Squads such as Burnas, Lootas, Manz, Nobz, Tankbustaz, Kommandos, Flashgitz, anything in a Trukk etc will always be under 10 orks or the first casualties (and indeed the ones that will force that crucial LD test) will put them there.

Anything in a trukk will most likely be standing next to a wreck in full force. Someone already did the math on how unlikely trukk explosions are nowadays.

As an opponent the only thing I need to do is force enough LD tests, and blowing up a trukk or killing 5 orks is not a big deal.

Blowing up a battlewagon is a big deal. And even if you kill those 5 orks, that leadership test will do absolutely nothing four out of five times, except maybe remove an additional model or two.

As an ork player I have to find ways to cover my LD failings which can only really be done from the HQ slot and the warlord traits. Or play footsloggers.

If you think of the equivalent of LD9 as the worst any mob in the codex can do as "LD failings", I wonder what you think about the "LD failings" of other armies, which aren't all LD10. The only time LD regularly fails me is in fear tests, and it's not that hard to plan around.

I have not yet failed a single pinning or moral test with the new codex all thanks to mob rule. Claiming it's a bad rule is utter nonsense, both in theory and in practice.

It seems more players prefer the toyz before boyz now. I chose toyz personally just because outside of running green tide or infiltrating a blob on the enemy's doorstep, boyz aren't my primary offense anymore. Their still a key component of any army, but now you don't need to take a minimum of 90-120 boyz like you did before, which after upgrades and such would start adding up pretty fast.

I've actually found that taking as little boyz as possible makes the army stronger than spending more points on additional boyz. There a just so many good unit around now, you no longer have to rely on boyz at all.

It's hard for me to understand all that 'Chart' approach. How can a bikerboss be better than regular boss? That's just bikerboss is used with bikers or koptas while regular boss is used with footslogging or with boyz in transport. That's 2 different approaches and none of them is better or worse.

Ork dex has good internal ballance but your forces require synergy to work. No need to take a bikerboss in footslogging list but he's essential for speed freaks. No need to take a warboss in a walker-spam list - you're better off with kff meks and painboyz for blobs. Etc.

It's only appropriate to compare unit's effectiveness in certain lists and not on the whole.

Not at all. I even put a bikerboss with footsloggers, simply for the T6 and option to dart away from the mob and lock a second unit in combat or taking on a walker in close combat. I don't see a reason to field a warboss without either MA(in transport) or bike(outside of transport), and I think the poll reflects that perfectly.

As for walker-spam: There is very little spam you can do without eventually being able to fulfill the requirements for the dreadmob formation - at that point you'd want a warboss as your warlord again because the walkers from that formation can benefit from the Waaagh! as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Not at all. I even put a bikerboss with footsloggers, simply for the T6 and option to dart away from the mob and lock a second unit in combat or taking on a walker in close combat. I don't see a reason to field a warboss without either MA(in transport) or bike(outside of transport), and I think the poll reflects that perfectly.

Boyz don't benefit from run + charge and can't shoot overwatch if theyre joined by a megaboss for example. That's quite a disadvantage even for a battlewagon squad. If you want extra mobility - you go with a regular boss, if you want 2+ rerollable, you go with a megaboss + lukky stix. Nothing of theese is better or worse. They're just 2 equal options.

Trying to rate such things feels like song charts. Useless.

Shooting overwatch with sluggas is kind of neglectable, running and charging is rarely need from battlewagons with planks. I usually call the Waaagh! for a second charge phase of the game - if the boyz mob really needs that run to make the charge, I simply unattach the warboss in the movement phase and hide it/join another squad/charge something that can't hurt it.

I would never field a warboss without MA in a battlewagon, and apparently a good number of other people think so, too. In combination with da lukky stick, the difference in power to a regular warboss is simply off the chart.

Not much cheaper either to avoid the MA. The benefit of being able to run/fire overwatch/sweeping advance is pretty minimal when compared to getting a 2+ rerollable armor save especially when youre probably going to kill them dead anyway before they run.

Warboss w/o MA would cost roughly 119pts, thats including da stikk, 'eavy armor, bp, and pk. His killing potential is only different when facing things that have AP4 weapons or a ton of attacks where the 2+ armor will REALLY come in handy...guess what that happens all the damn time.

Warboss with MA costs 130pts including the stikk and bp. 11pts gives you a 2+ armor...vastly improving your survivability, slightly better shooting (TL shoota vs slugga), equal melee killing power (same exact weapon), at the cost of not running or sweeping advance.
How many times do things flee from a warboss anyway? Im shocked if my warbosses ever stay locked in combat or force a unit to run - usually they + the rest of their unit just obliterate the target.

Theres just no point to bringing a footboss vs maboss. 11pts is NOTHING but the difference in armor is highly noticable.

I've seen quite a few games where snp was enough a drawback to lose a game even with 2+ rerollable. Yep, on paper this 3-4 inches are not amazing and 2+ rerollable is really great...but we're playing vs real opponents that get more chances to out-manouvre you and focus on other threats or shoot the boyz from the flank and focus the boss down with ap2 weaponry either in mellee or from range. It's not better or worse. It's just different.

Against "real" opponents my MA warboss tends to murder 2-3 units without losing as much as a single boy or wound, resulting in a full strength mob of 20 in turn 5. You can't out-manouvre something that has an average charge range of 20" without sacrificing shooting.

"Focusing" also doesn't work at all. 2+ LoS! make all those expensive AP2 guns kill a 6 point boy, at which point you are shooting anti-tank at light infantry. In combat you can't focus the warboss, because someone is eating challenges for him - outside of that I get to pick what you wound.

The MA warboss with stikk has single-handedly won me games, can't say that much about a regular warboss. A regular warboss is going to die over the course of a game, a MA warboss is not. Running and sweeping is rarely needed, and you get a lot in return which is always useful.

My MA Boss with stikk went against an Eldar guy (forget his name, ML4 bastard) that kept popping Force and he has Fleshbane on his weapon, but it just "happened" to be AP3 rather than 2. He wounded me 8 times in 2 rounds of combat (damn 3++ saved his bacon first round) and i failed 3 of them, and normally only 1 would be the death of me except for da stikk reroll. My boss killed his boss purely because i had da stikk backing me up, i should not have won that fight since he strikes first, hits on 3s, wounds on 2s, and only needed 1 hit while i hit on 4s and had less attacks attacking last.

Even if you pen his 2+ armor hes a T5 model, theres not many commonly seen shooting attacks outside Eldar that are S10. If i somehow fail a 2+ LoS, i got FNP to fall back on at least (cant reroll that but i still get it) and the KFF thats near me, which i can reroll.

Also, regarding the lack of sweeping advance, face it how many people do you face that isnt some form of marine anyway? If they arent a marine, you probably completely wiped the unit to begin with (thats how it usually happens for me, marines are usually the only people to survive the initial slaughter of my boss's unit). You cant sweep them anyway.

On another note of the stikk, have you ever thought about how crazy nasty a big blob of boyz is with WS5 AND the Command trait to reroll to hits of 1 in combat? I managed to snag that on my warbiker + boss combo which had the stikk in it. That...was crazy lol...basically hit EVERYTHING since i hit on 3s rerolled 1s.