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So last night I was playing against a marine player who had a tac squad on different levels in a ruin. My necron deathmarks hopped out of their transport with a cryptek of despair who immediately flammed the marked unit in the ruin. One of my peeps told me that the rules for template/blast weapons changed in 7th such that there are no floors anymore effectively and that you hold the flamer template above the building and everything below the template is hit regardless of being on different floors. That was news to me but he showed me in the brb under the blast markers and templates section. Needless to say my opponent refused to follow that rule and it ended up costing me the game. This morning I looked at that passage and saw that two sentences before the bolded sentence it says that when you use a template weapon 'it' will explain how to position the template. I didn't see that last night and I can't find a section in the brb that describes how one positions a flamer template but I bet it's in there somewhere.

So I guess my question is: do template/blast weapons now generate a 'column' of destruction?

Flamers are not held above the ruin. They are placed with their small end touching the base of the model firing them.

They do hit everything under them however.


Note that you'll have to talk to your gaming group about whether you think the small line about hitting models "you can see under the template" means you actually have to see the models (and thus not cause hits on models completely obscured by floors and such).

As stated the template must be placed with the small end touching the models base, however, even if you go by the interpretation that the flamer hits all floors of the ruin(say if the firing model is standing on the highest level of the ruin) then you still don't have permission to wound models you can not see.

 necron99 wrote:
I didn't see that last night and I can't find a section in the brb that describes how one positions a flamer template but I bet it's in there somewhere.

Look under the heading "Templates" for instructions on how to place a template. The section of the book you were shown is a pretty general description of "templates and blast markers" and doesn't contain the specifics needed (as templates and blast markers essentially work differently).

FWIW, the Frontline Gaming peoples determined for the BAO:

For ease of tournament play, at this event, if a Blast or Template weapon would affect
more than one level of a ruin the player making the attack must choose one of the levels to effect.
non-Torrent Template weapons can only choose one level above/below themselves. Barrage
weapons always strike the highest level that is under the hole in the center of the marker.

In their podcast, they acknowledge this is not a strict RAW and shouldn't apply to everybody, but they fear nobody would use all those nice ruins they got for their tournaments.

For easy of use, I would highly suggest just using the 4 pages of ruin rules from the 6th ed book.

In contrast, the ATC FAQ says:

All models under the template on all levels of a ruin are hit by a Barrage/Blast Template.

So there's no clear precedent. Discuss it with your local peoples.

axisofentropy wrote:
So there's no clear precedent.

Actually there is a precedent: the rules in the 7th edition rulebook, where you clearly hit all models under the template regardless of levels (and in fact the entire concept of levels is gone). The fact that some third-party tournaments want to change the rule to make it work "better" does not mean that there's any kind of precedent, or that you need to discuss how to play it with anyone outside of those few events.

 Peregrine wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
So there's no clear precedent.

Actually there is a precedent: the rules in the 7th edition rulebook, where you clearly hit all models under the template regardless of levels (and in fact the entire concept of levels is gone). The fact that some third-party tournaments want to change the rule to make it work "better" does not mean that there's any kind of precedent, or that you need to discuss how to play it with anyone outside of those few events.

Can you cite the rule you claim exists? I can not find regardless of levels in my BRB.

sirlynchmob wrote:
I can not find regardless of levels in my BRB.

That was the point. There are no rules for levels any more. Anything under the template is hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

axisofentropy wrote:
In contrast, the ATC FAQ says:

All models under the template on all levels of a ruin are hit by a Barrage/Blast Template.

So there's no clear precedent. Discuss it with your local peoples.

There is no such thing as a 'barrage/blast template'.

Templates and Blasts are two completely separate things.

hes saying there are no more levels in his parenthesis sirlynch and he's right.

Ruins are mearly area terrain with access to both horizontal and vertical movement now.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I can not find regardless of levels in my BRB.

That was the point. There are no rules for levels any more. Anything under the template is hit.


Templates and Blasts are two completely separate things.

blasts and templates are described together on pg 12 in bold. They are not completely separate, they do have things in common.

So you guys are saying, templates have infinite range and ignore LOS?

At best you could hit the level you are on and down 2 levels, anything past that would be out of range.
Also the firing models need to be able to draw LOS to the target model, or else out of LOS triggers and the wound pool is emptied.

And that is not what you guys are claiming.

infinite range in the Z axis, but not the x and y axis.

there were other editions where this was the case as well.

sirlynchmob wrote:
blasts and templates are described together on pg 12 in bold. They are not completely separate, they do have things in common.

They're still two different things. Blast Markers are not templates.

So you guys are saying, templates have infinite range and ignore LOS?

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template. You still need LOS for casualty removal, though.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
blasts and templates are described together on pg 12 in bold. They are not completely separate, they do have things in common.

They're still two different things. Blast Markers are not templates.

So you guys are saying, templates have infinite range and ignore LOS?

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template. You still need LOS for casualty removal, though.

When it comes time to allocate wounds we have.
'if none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target unit, then wounds cannot be allocated to it.

and

where is this vertical range specified? and how does that override the specific
'all weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest they can shoot.
'any model that has LOS to at least one enemy model in the target unit AND IS FOUND TO BE IN RANGE of that model can shoot.'

If you can quote this infinite vertical range rule you'd have a case. templates do not state regardless of range.

It does have a maximum range, which is the max it can shoot.

it does not have any limits on what it can affect as long as its under the template.

So the template is placed, within its max range. done.

rule satisified.

blaktoof wrote:
It does have a maximum range, which is the max it can shoot.

it does not have any limits on what it can affect as long as its under the template.

So the template is placed, within its max range. done.

rule satisified.

It has numerous limits on what it can affect.

lets look at templates
'instead of rolling to hit, look underneath template, all it does is modify step 4 of the shooting sequence 'roll to hit'

prior to that we have step 2, check range and LOS
step 3, within range & LOS 'any model that has LOS ... and found to be in range ... can shoot'
step 4, do template instructions
step 5,
step 6, limited by out of range and LOS

If there are no models in range of the template, it can not shoot. And let's remember to measure range, we measure B2B.

sirlynchmob wrote:
'all weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest they can shoot.

Yup. And in the case of Template weapons, that range is simply the template... and the Template rules tell us that anything under the template is hit, that would mean that anything under the template is that template range.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
blasts and templates are described together on pg 12 in bold. They are not completely separate, they do have things in common.

They're still two different things. Blast Markers are not templates.

So you guys are saying, templates have infinite range and ignore LOS?

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template. You still need LOS for casualty removal, though.

Except you have to place the Template touching the base of the firing model. Which greatly limits it's vertical range.

Unless the firing model is on the top floor.

That's why I said 'theoretically'... the models still have to be under the template in the first place.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
'all weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest they can shoot.

Yup. And in the case of Template weapons, that range is simply the template... and the Template rules tell us that anything under the template is hit, that would mean that anything under the template is that template range.

And how does that affect the shooting sequence, especially steps 2 & 3. since you only use the template instead of step 4?

ie you have a model with a template weapon on the third floor, he's the only model in the unit. The closest target model is 6" down and 7.9" away. Going through the shooting sequence is that unit a legal target?

Now replace the template weapon with a pistol with a 8" range, The closest target model is 6" down and 7.9" away. Going through the shooting sequence is that unit a legal target?

Walk us through the shooting sequence in both situations and explain any difference in the answers. Or just 'no to both' for short.

oh and to save you the math, hey I used geometry today b2b is 9.9"

sirlynchmob wrote:
Walk us through the shooting sequence in both situations and explain any difference in the answers.

The answer is that one weapon has a range given as a certain distance, while the other has a range of "under the template". It doesn't matter at all what the distance is between the shooting model and the model under the template as long as it is under the template.

sirlynchmob wrote:
ie you have a model with a template weapon on the third floor, he's the only model in the unit. The closest target model is 6" down and 7.9" away. Going through the shooting sequence is that unit a legal target?

If he is in LOS, and under the template, yes, he's a legal target.

Now replace the template weapon with a pistol with a 8" range, The closest target model is 6" down and 7.9" away. Going through the shooting sequence is that unit a legal target?

If he's in LOS, but out of range, then no, he's not a legal target because he is not in range.

Walk us through the shooting sequence in both situations and explain any difference in the answers.

The difference in the answers comes from the fact that the first model is in range (ie: under the template) while the second is not.

Same way it was in 3rd... basically their ruling was that flamers and the such pretty much "fill" the building/ruins/bunker/whatever with fire so it didnt matter whether they were on the top floor or ground floor, if they were under the template they were hit

So wait, templates have to be placed like this?



How in the Eye do you define "under" for this kind of positioning?

 Cheexsta wrote:
So wait, templates have to be placed like this?

By the rules, yes.

This isn't new. It's how templates have worked for as long as there have been templates in the game.

How in the Eye do you define "under" for this kind of positioning?

Not sure what you mean. You look down from above, and anything under it is under it.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
ie you have a model with a template weapon on the third floor, he's the only model in the unit. The closest target model is 6" down and 7.9" away. Going through the shooting sequence is that unit a legal target?

If he is in LOS, and under the template, yes, he's a legal target.

You're not following the shooting sequence though. you only use the template instead of rolling to hit on step 4. For step 2 and 3 you check for range between the units and the target unit must be in range.

Just like the pistol is out of range, so to is the template and can not declare a target that is further than 8" (step 2). Nor can choose the model with template to shoot at anything further than 8" (step 3)

We are also told wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules. ie they must not be beyond they maximum range, so even if you claim you can hit them, you can not allocate wounds to them.

sirlynchmob wrote:
For step 2 and 3 you check for range between the units and the target unit must be in range.

And to do that you place the template and look to see if any models are underneath it. If you can do this then the unit is within range, if not, it is out of range. You seem to think that template weapons have a range given as some kind of fixed distance, but this is not true.

Just like the pistol is out of range, so to is the template and can not declare a target that is further than 8" (step 2).

Where are you getting this 8" number from? Template weapons do not have a range of 8", they have a range of "under the template".

 Peregrine wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
For step 2 and 3 you check for range between the units and the target unit must be in range.

And to do that you place the template and look to see if any models are underneath it. If you can do this then the unit is within range, if not, it is out of range. You seem to think that template weapons have a range given as some kind of fixed distance, but this is not true.

Just like the pistol is out of range, so to is the template and can not declare a target that is further than 8" (step 2).

Where are you getting this 8" number from? Template weapons do not have a range of 8", they have a range of "under the template".

the template is only placed and used "instead of rolling to hit" (step 4) Which is after range between units have been measured b2b to pick a target unit, and after you select a weapon that must be within range, measured b2b to see if the weapon has range to the target unit. Well before the template is even used, or told to be used.

Can you quote this range of "under the template" the rules for templates do not alter steps 2 & 3 for checking range, nor step 6 to allocate wounds.

we are told on pg 12 they are roughly 8"

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can you quote this range of "under the template" the rules for templates do not alter steps 2 & 3 for checking range, nor step 6 to allocate wounds.

It's because this is the only way to measure range with a template, because template weapons do not have a conventional range. Even if it doesn't say so explicitly the only way to know if a model is within range of the template is to place the template and look to see if there's any way that the template can cover that model. So you have two choices:

1) Check range by placing the template.

or

2) Template weapons can not check range and can not be used.

Since #2 is obviously stupid that leaves #1 as the only option.

we are told on pg 12 they are roughly 8"

"Roughly 8"" is not the same as "range of 8"", just like blast weapons do not have a range of 5" or 3".