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fine check range b2b with the template.Because how do we check ranges between models & stuff? b2b.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can you quote this range of "under the template"

Look at the profile of any template weapon.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can you quote this range of "under the template"

Look at the profile of any template weapon.

and you measure range from B2B right?

so the template must reach from B2B or the target is out of range.

You must check range twice before you roll to hit, which is when you are told to use the template to work out hits.

templates "instead of rolling to hit....."

there are no rules to modify check range from B2B, which needs to be done twice before you place the template instead of rolling to hit.

I'm not really sure what the point of your argument here is. What are you trying to accomplish by proving that template weapons can't measure range? You're certainly not going to provide any support for your claim that you measure 8" (or whatever fixed distance), since that is not in any way supported by the rules. Your choices are "templates don't work" or "check if the model is under the template".

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm not really sure what the point of your argument here is. What are you trying to accomplish by proving that template weapons can't measure range? You're certainly not going to provide any support for your claim that you measure 8" (or whatever fixed distance), since that is not in any way supported by the rules. Your choices are "templates don't work" or "check if the model is under the template".

The point is: How do you measure range in a game of 40k?

B2B

If you want to claim it's only the models under the template, then if you have a open topped vehicle, put 10 templates over 3 models, only those 3 models will be able to have wounds allocated to them.

If you think you should swing the template to see if any other models are in "range" Then you are doing what I am claiming you should do. Measure B2B using the template. If you can't reach the target base, you can not shoot at them, nor allocate wounds to them.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The point is: How do you measure range in a game of 40k?

B2B

Which causes problems with templates, as we are given no mechanism for turning the teardrop-shaped template into a distance.

All we have to go by is the mechanic that is used to determine the hits, which (despite the strict wording of the rules) actually replaces both the range measurement and the to hit roll.

If you want to claim it's only the models under the template...

Nobody is claiming that.

If you think you should swing the template to see if any other models are in "range" Then you are doing what I am claiming you should do. Measure B2B using the template. If you can't reach the target base, you can not shoot at them, nor allocate wounds to them.

Not quite. The template is placed against the shooter's base, and anything under it is hit. So the range of the template is effectively the length and width of the template, and anything under the template... because that's how templates work.

Nowhere in the rules are we told to use one particular dimension of the template to determine range.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The point is: How do you measure range in a game of 40k?

B2B

Which causes problems with templates, as we are given no mechanism for turning the teardrop-shaped template into a distance.

All we have to go by is the mechanic that is used to determine the hits, which (despite the strict wording of the rules) actually replaces both the range measurement and the to hit roll.

If you want to claim it's only the models under the template...

Nobody is claiming that.

If you think you should swing the template to see if any other models are in "range" Then you are doing what I am claiming you should do. Measure B2B using the template. If you can't reach the target base, you can not shoot at them, nor allocate wounds to them.

Not quite. The template is placed against the shooter's base, and anything under it is hit. So the range of the template is effectively the length and width of the template, and anything under the template... because that's how templates work.

Nowhere in the rules are we told to use one particular dimension of the template to determine range.

If you have no mechanism for turning the template into a distance, and you've houseruled it to replace range & measurement, you are claiming that only the models under the template can be hit and have allocated wounds. Because if you don't use it to measure to other models in the target unit, and the template is the range, only those under the marker are in range, and the only models that can be hit and wounded. As any other models in the unit would be out of range.

let's read this again:

The template is placed against the shooter's base, and anything under it is hit. So the range of the template is effectively the length and width of the template, and anything under the template... because that's how templates work.

You just said above that only the models under the template are in range so those are the only models that can be hit, and have wounds allocated to them. As you just stated the range is the length and width of the template and there is no permission to move the template after it has been placed.

We can use the template to measure distance, it's quite common to do across a flat distance, or from a vehicle. If you swing the template away from how you are told to place it, you are using it to measure distance. So when measured from the base of the firing model to the target model, we have a distance and if the template can reach both than the target is within range of the weapon.

I'd bet everyone would use the template to measure, but as this is dakka I'd say at least a lot of people, even you, do it. Then as we are using the normal rules to allocate wounds, the target models must be within range, we measure the range from b2b, so if the template can touch both bases a wound can be allocated, if not the wound is lost due to out of range.

As you objected when I stated only the models under the template are the only models hit & wounded I would assume you also swing the template to measure with.

so which is it, is the template fixed where you are told to place it and the range is just under the template, or do you measure with it and thus be able to wound other models following the normal rules for wound allocation? ie within range.

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can use the template to measure distance, it's quite common to do across a flat distance, or from a vehicle. If you swing the template away from how you are told to place it, you are using it to measure distance. So when measured from the base of the firing model to the target model, we have a distance and if the template can reach both than the target is within range of the weapon.

And here's where you're wrong. When you swing the template you aren't using it to measure linear distance, you're doing a very quick and casual version of "is this model going to be under the template in at least some orientation of the template".

so which is it, is the template fixed where you are told to place it and the range is just under the template, or do you measure with it and thus be able to wound other models following the normal rules for wound allocation? ie within range.

None of the above. Which models are in range is defined by which models can potentially be covered by the template, so a model that is a mile directly below the template is still within range. Then once you have determined which models are within range you place the template in its final location and count the number of hits. At no point do you measure linear distance between two bases.

I think you need to read the basic rules allocate wounds and remove casualties again. pg 35. As nothing you just stated is RAW.

and where is the permission to move the template after you are told so explicitly how to place it?

sirlynchmob wrote:
and where is the permission to move the template after you are told so explicitly how to place it?

You have to check range before you place the template. You have two choices for how you can do this:

1) Place the template in every possible location to see which models could potentially be covered by it, just like you would use a tape measure to see which models are within X". Note that this is done based on the "what is under it" rule, not by measuring linear distance with the template as an improvised tape measure.

2) Template weapons can not measure range, and can not ever fire or allocate wounds.

Take your pick. Either you can hit everything beneath the template and allocate the wounds to anything that could be beneath the template, or you can't use template weapons at all. I think it is pretty obvious which of these is the correct choice.

house rule it however you like, 1 & 2 are wrong per RAW.

You measure range from Base to Base.

templates allocate wounds following the normal rules for wound allocation.

the template is only used instead of rolling to hit.

during the other phases you use it to check range (b2b) ie, to see if it can reach from the firers base to the target base.

out of range: use the weapons maximum range, when looking at the template you can clearly see what it's maximum range is.
Range is B2B
you're not looking to see what is under it, you're looking to see if it can reach the base. Which is what you need to do to check range.

sirlynchmob wrote:
the template is only used instead of rolling to hit.

Then you can't use template weapons. I fail to see how "template weapons don't work RAW" is a compelling argument for anything to do with wound allocation and multi-level ruins.

during the other phases you use it to check range (b2b) ie, to see if it can reach from the firers base to the target base.

No you do not. Nothing in the rules at all suggests that you see if the template can reach base to base. The only way a template is ever used is to place it over models and see what is under it. So either you use the template to see what can potentially be under it and consider those models to be in range, or you can't measure range at all. Your choice.

 Peregrine wrote:


No you do not. Nothing in the rules at all suggests that you see if the template can reach base to base. The only way a template is ever used is to place it over models and see what is under it. So either you use the template to see what can potentially be under it and consider those models to be in range, or you can't measure range at all. Your choice.

All measurements are done B2B, where is this changed for templates? it's not.

ergo when you need to measure for steps 2, 3 & 5 you need to check B2B to see if they are in range. Nothing in the template rules change this and tells you, you have to do it for step 5. If you don't you are not following RAW.

As you say you don't use the template to measure then you can only hit and wound what the template is over and no other models. IF you don't agree to what you are arguing than you should admit you're argument is wrong.

You can, and most do, use the template to measure and check range, you must check, and can only check ranges b2b RAW. the Template rules only change the to hit roll and nothing else.

sirlynchmob wrote:
All measurements are done B2B, where is this changed for templates? it's not.

Ok, then template weapons don't work, because there is no way to measure B2B with a template. This is a valid choice to make, but I don't see what it has to do with how many hits you get in ruins.

As you say you don't use the template to measure then you can only hit and wound what the template is over and no other models.

No, that means you can't shoot at all. The game breaks as soon as you declare that your template weapon will be shooting and have no way to check range. You can not continue past this point and just sit there doing nothing until you either end the game or decide to change the rules.

You can, and most do, use the template to measure and check range, you must check, and can only check ranges b2b RAW.

How? Could you cite some rules for this, not just what people commonly do?

Where do you get this false idea that you can not measure with a template? we're even told it's roughly 8" long.

Oh ya, you had to make it up to support this idea you can extend the range of a weapon by standing higher in a ruin. while ignoring the requirement to measure B2B

Measuring B2B with a template is easy, touch the firing models base, and see if it can reach the target's base. And it meets the requirements of steps 2, 3 and 5 for determining range.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Where do you get this false idea that you can not measure with a template?

Where are we told how to measure range by using a template as an improvised tape measure? How should it be aligned? What parts of the template count for measuring range? What do we do if there's a model in the way and we can't place the template on the table between the two bases? Please cite rules for this when you answer.

we're even told it's roughly 8" long.

So? We're also told that blasts are 3" and 5" in diameter, but we don't use that fact to measure range.

Measuring B2B with a template is easy, touch the firing models base, and see if it can reach the target's base.

Now could you please cite a rule that says that the way to measure "template" inches is to place a template between the two bases? As far as I can see you've just invented this concept without any rules to support it.

the inches are irrelevant. to be in range you must be able to reach B2B.

Range is determined by the distance between bases. How can you keep denying this and still claim to be arguing RAW?

we have range:template, permission to use it to measure range. the range is the template and to meet the requirements of measuring range it must reach b2b. does it reach B2B? As required by steps 2, 3 & 5. if yes, it is in range. if not, you can not shoot at the target, nor allocate wounds to the target.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I keep citing the rules, you keep ignoring them and making up rules to change the way steps 2, 3 & 5 work in the shooting phase.

Inches are not irrelevant.

"In games of Warhammer 40,000, distances are measured in inches (") with a tape measure or measuring stick." (General Principles chapter, Measuring Distances section).

So measuring range is done in inches.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Inches are not irrelevant.

"In games of Warhammer 40,000, distances are measured in inches (") with a tape measure or measuring stick." (General Principles chapter, Measuring Distances section).

So measuring range is done in inches.

did you miss range:template.

But fine if you guys can't see that means you are using the template to check ranges b2b, then template weapons can never be used. You can't determine if they are in range to declare a target unit, nor declare them as a weapon as you can't verify the distance to the target.

If you agree you use them to measure range, then you have to acknowledge they measure range from B2B as the rules for templates do not change that requirement. Especially if you use a template to see if other models can have wounds allocate to them other than the ones under the template. templates tell you to use normal wound allocation, so if you can't find a way to check the range b2b, than out of range triggers and the would pool empties.

so in trying to prove templates have infinite range you and peregrine just nerfed them out of existence. congrats.

sirlynchmob wrote:
we have range:template, permission to use it to measure range..

Now please quote the section that details how to do this.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
we have range:template, permission to use it to measure range..

Now please quote the section that details how to do this.

you place it B2B between the firing model and the target model. If it can reach, it's in range. You should know the rules as you've admitted to doing just that.

But I'm fine with templates being broke and unusable in the game, my ork trukks love that idea you're putting forth.

To get to step 4 of the shooting sequence to use the template you have to first figure out if the target models are in range, you say this is not possible, so I'll go along with it as it greatly benefits me.

If you want to get past this and agree that you are using the template to measure range as you've stated previously when I brought up the open top vehicle and template question, then we are left with how to measure on pg 10, the requirements of pg 30 2,3 &5 specifically, and all we have is 2 bases and 1 template. so we can either use the template to see if it can reach B2B or declare templates unusable in 40k.

sirlynchmob wrote:
you place it B2B between the firing model and the target model.

And the rule that says this is where?

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
you place it B2B between the firing model and the target model.

And the rule that says this is where?

You should know the rules as you've admitted to doing just that.

MAXIMUM RANGE
laspistol 12"
boltgun 24"
flamer: template

the template is it's maximum range. It uses the template for range, and the requirement on measuring range is B2B. Unless you finally found a rule under templates to change that requirement, for steps 2, 3 and 5 of the shooting sequence.

If you have a trukk full of template weapons and all the templates are over 3 models, do you move the template to see if other models in the unit are in range?

If you answer yes, you are using the template to measure and the requirement is B2B to determine range.

sirlynchmob wrote:
You should know the rules as you've admitted to doing just that.

No, I've 'admitted' to placing the template and assuming that any models under it are in range, as the rules for templates say that any model under it is hit... and to be hit, they have to have been in range.

What I'm questioning is your claim that the rules say to put the template down on the table to measure range first. And how this should actually be done.

the template is it's maximum range. It uses the template for range, and the requirement on measuring range is B2B.

So how, exactly, do we measure a distance with the template?

Where is your rule that tells you this?

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You should know the rules as you've admitted to doing just that.

No, I've 'admitted' to placing the template and assuming that any models under it are in range, as the rules for templates say that any model under it is hit... and to be hit, they have to have been in range.

What I'm questioning is your claim that the rules say to put the template down on the table to measure range first. And how this should actually be done.

the template is it's maximum range. It uses the template for range, and the requirement on measuring range is B2B.

So how, exactly, do we measure a distance with the template?

Where is your rule that tells you this?

By all means explain how you meet steps 2 & 3 of the shooting phase without your house rule.

you measure B2B with the template, I know this ruins your increased range from being in ruins argument, But that is the requirement for all range measurements. You need a firing model and a target model and you measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

sirlynchmob wrote:
you measure B2B with the template,

So you keep saying, but have yet to provide the requested rules quote that backs it up.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
you measure B2B with the template,

So you keep saying, but have yet to provide the requested rules quote that backs it up.

By all means explain how you meet steps 2 & 3 of the shooting phase without your house rule and without the template.

So no rules quote, then?

 insaniak wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
So wait, templates have to be placed like this?

By the rules, yes.

This isn't new. It's how templates have worked for as long as there have been templates in the game.

How in the Eye do you define "under" for this kind of positioning?

Not sure what you mean. You look down from above, and anything under it is under it.

so by that turn of logic, the closer models get to the unit with the template weapon, the shorter range the template gets since you have to continually angle it upward?
We always played it as template above the model, in line with the front of the base. That way model height didnt ever shorten range

 insaniak wrote:

So no rules quote, then?

flamer: template, the template is it's maximum range (pg40). and the requirement on measuring range is B2B (pg10). You need a firing model and a target model and you need to measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

I've quoted it many times and I'll provide it again, can you cite any rules to back up your position without house rules?

It is crystal clear that:

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template.

is demonstrably wrong and I've shown it many times. Templates do not ignore the requirements of B2B.