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Considering a single round of shooting from a Dire Avengers squad will kill almost two of those TW's on average, that's not as amazing as it sounds for its points.

"Somethingsomethingcover", etc.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Until he beats them down with the Black Mace.

Seems Wolves have the best priest running though, better then a Chappy, and better then Dark Apostle with PF IF or MC, with FNP 6+.

a single 5th ed lonewolve of mine, take down a black mace daemon prince, the other guy was like

Toofast wrote:
Empty drop pods is stupid? That's one of the best additions in the entire book.

Don't confuse "good options" with incredibly dumb from a space marines perspective. Space Marines don't launch empty drop pods, nor would a space wolf drop pod include anything other than space wolves because they are launched from the SW ship in orbit. That's why it's dumb.

 Zakiriel wrote:
Got the new Dex and so far really like it.
However my main annoyance was that I was told that WD #27 was to be the source for rules for Murderfang.
But on going through the dex Murderfang is in there with the special dreads....

Btw Anyone else notice that the Necron Dex has dissappared from the GW webstore? Are they next?

The Murderfang rules were in WD as a preview to the codex, like they've been doing with most of their releases lately (ork morkanaut and flash gitz etc)

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Space Wolves are supposed to be Space Marines with a nordic flavor.

Not vikings with a Space Marine flavor.


Everything about the Logan Chariot is awful.

Honestly, I want to see this codex in person. Even if they are just "Space Marines +1", which is what most are saying about them, that is huge. C:SM is a great codex with so many ways to use it that I am quite literally aggravated. I play CSM, specifically Khorne CSM. A standard CSM for me has the CCW and MoK. Guess what that is roughly equivalent rules wise (though lacking the lessened, though still amazing ATSKNF), but costs more than your "ultra nerf-hammered GH"? And complaining that your terminators cost 39 points apparently? That is -cheaper- than C:SM in case you forgot. The new murderdread of murder or whatever it's called basically took a giant dump on the Furioso. On top of that you apparently get a 3++ on a dread? Good grief, even if it is oooonly on the front arc, proper positioning just made that one of the worst things to face unless you have ungodly melta/las tier AT firepower. I'm no expert at mathhammer, but I'd wager it'd take a full squad of lascannon havocs/devastators 2-3 turns to finally kill that thing.

Now we get to the "stupid flying wolfbox". That thing is, quite honestly, the most blatant example of why Space Wolves are space marines +1. Its a Stormraven but better. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not one of the few non-superheavy weapons in the game that can handle horde infantry, MEQ, TEQ, MC, Light armor, and heavy armor all with the same ease? And you have the nerve to complain about it?? This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in. And it is apparently also has the same functionality as a LRC as far as being an assault transport, for less? Even without having read the dex yet, just with the general explanations I've read in this thread alone, I can't figure out how my current army (CSM) will be able to do a single thing to this. TWC were amazing before, and now with a point reduction I'd expect 8/10 list to at least have a 5 strong unit, just as board control units. GH still have the same role they had before: arguably the best MEQ objective holders in the game. It's a good thing their point cost got brought in line. Plus the shenanigans with taking a flamer at no cost, then saying "oh look, a plasma gun that would normally cost 15 points... I guess it's free because Fenris".

Sorry, all of your complaints fall on deaf ears from this direction. Yeah, you didn't get an army of 2++ 10 point terminators all with double grav cannons + TH/LC. GW made a mistake with Eldar, and they are silently admitting it. Even the much daunted Tau are a shade of their former glory with the loss of Taudar/Eldau. Are Tau a strong army still? No doubt. But now that having reliable objective holders, specifically objective secured holders, is even more important, Tau aren't all they used to be. And given how easy it is to kill their T3 infantry, and with the major changes to jink, the Devilfish took a substantial hit as well. This should all come across as harsh. Because it is. You got a great book. If the only complaint you can manage is "murrmrrr i have to pay for my CCW now waaaah" or "I get a TEQ chariot with 4 extra rending attacks but it looks odd so I'm butthurt"... just stop. Actually -use- the army before you get all whiney about a few obviously needed changes. At least your army didnt get stomped all over like my poor nids.

Now feel free to pick out each induvidual line of this to tell me how wrong I am and that now SW are the worst codex ever to be made. You still wont have a leg to stand on.

For 250 points you get grav centurions that spit out 15 shots per turn, wounding on armor save and re rolling wounds. The difference is the centurions don't have to make it across the table to get those 15 attacks and they have a better armor save. I don't see how TWC are suddenly a game changer. They're better than they were, but still not the death star unit other codexes have access to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines +1 -grav guns, thunder cannons, centurions, combat squads, chapter tactics like bikes as troops...
Do the math hammer on that and you get approximately space marines -3.

The only complaint I have about the book is the layout.

I much prefer what they did with the 6th ed style like Vanilla Marines.

The pics above the units annoy me. There's not much in the way of fluff anymore and where has the fantastic art gone?

Was the Ork codex set out like this?

On the army side, I like it a lot. They lost a few options, had some very necessary nerfs to GH and gained tons from points reductions, streamlined rules and general buffs.

My winners:

Ven Dreads with the Shield and Axe - Great survivability.

Stormwolf - I'm taking never a Land Raider again. No point when this thing gets there faster and is better equipped.

TWC - So rending on Wolf Claws. Yup.

Long Fangs - They are still winners IMO. I'm considering 2 Las, 2 Plas Cannon in each squad and taking two squads. Splits it up nicely so you don't have all your eggs in one basket.

Blood Claws - Just did get a lot better, IMO. WS3 is still meh, but ohhhh those attacks on the charge are going to be good. Mini 'Zerkers.

Finally...

General point reduction of characters - Much needed, much welcomed. Especially on Wolf Lord and Arjac.

One thing to consider is running many stormwolves. AA is not really what it used to be since the necron flyers have seen a sharp decrease and the FMC circus belongs pretty much just to Tyranids.

Throw in 5 min squads of GH's/BC's in stormwolves and the opponent is gonna have a real hard time dealing with 5 12/12/12 3HP flyers that don't care about melta.

... you'll suck balls in maelstrom missions though.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Now feel free to pick out each induvidual line of this to tell me how wrong I am and that now SW are the worst codex ever to be made. You still wont have a leg to stand on.

Whole lot o' whinging in your post. Most people aren't complaining about the things you are talking about and I don't think anyone is saying "SW are the worst codex ever to be made". But don't let me stop your needless ranting.

The only point you touched on that people are genuinely complaining about is GH, which have been nerfed but I agree they're probably at a better level now. We sure as hell don't want them nerfed to the point of Tacticals because Tacticals suck hairy monkey balls. Though a legitimate GH complaint is no more MOTW, which is a shame. I don't care all that much personally, I never liked the more recent fluff where SW who had succumb to the curse of the wulfen were allowed to stay on fighting with the chapter, but if you spent time making MOTW models then I could see how it would be annoying.

StarHunter25 wrote:
This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in.

It won't, really, because 360 degree torrent > a blast weapon, and it costs 50 points more than a Heldrake.

The Drake was cheese because it was under-costed for a 360 degree AP3 torrent weapon. That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.

Also, ending your post with "what I just said was ridiculous and now people are going to point that out the fools" is not only nonconstructive, but it also doesn't make your post any less ridiculous.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Space Wolves are supposed to be Space Marines with a nordic flavor.

Not vikings with a Space Marine flavor.


Everything about the Logan Chariot is awful.

This, a thousand time this.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in.

It won't, really, because 360 degree torrent > a blast weapon, and it costs 50 points more than a Heldrake.

The Drake was cheese because it was under-costed for a 360 degree AP3 torrent weapon. That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.

Also, ending your post with "what I just said was ridiculous and now people are going to point that out the fools" is not only nonconstructive, but it also doesn't make your post any less ridiculous.

Of course the Drake being back to hull-mounted simply dropped CSM down a few more notches, considering it barely hit high in the tournament scene, it pretty much just cemented it as "Chaos Daemon Allies"

 anyeri wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Until he beats them down with the Black Mace.

Seems Wolves have the best priest running though, better then a Chappy, and better then Dark Apostle with PF IF or MC, with FNP 6+.

a single 5th ed lonewolve of mine, take down a black mace daemon prince, the other guy was like

I'd have a Lone Wolf kill Mephiston and Abaddon before...

StarHunter25 wrote:
Honestly, I want to see this codex in person. Even if they are just "Space Marines +1", which is what most are saying about them, that is huge.

Nah, I wouldn't say they're SM+1, they're on far more even ground than they were in 5th ed. Tac Marines are arguably superior to GH in some aspects and C:SM actually has a lot of unique options now that haven't been pillaged by other books.

Should have left Logans model alone, made Bjorn the LoW since he has a new kit anyway. Then SW could have got a big tank or something.

I'm not hating on the chariot, just they could have picked new kits better overall.

A big tank would have been more interesting than Murder,slow AV12,fang.

 Bulldogging wrote:
Should have left Logans model alone, made Bjorn the LoW since he has a new kit anyway. Then SW could have got a big tank or something.

I'm not hating on the chariot, just they could have picked new kits better overall.

A big tank would have been more interesting than Murder,slow AV12,fang.

I would have loved to see Bjorn become a real crazy beast worthy of the LOW title, but given he's just a dreadnought and dreadnoughts really aren't that hard to kill, it's hard to turn him in to a real high point LOW. Unless they turned him in to a superheavy or something (it's not like GW are afraid of retconning stuff).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:
Should have left Logans model alone, made Bjorn the LoW since he has a new kit anyway. Then SW could have got a big tank or something.

I'm not hating on the chariot, just they could have picked new kits better overall.

A big tank would have been more interesting than Murder,slow AV12,fang.

I would have loved to see Bjorn become a real crazy beast worthy of the LOW title, but given he's just a dreadnought and dreadnoughts really aren't that hard to kill, it's hard to turn him in to a real high point LOW. Unless they turned him in to a superheavy or something (it's not like GW are afraid of retconning stuff).

pfft, they could have chained 2 Thunderwolves to him and called it a day.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

Having finally gotten a good look at it.
There is very little I don't like about it.
I think the Wargear price placement iirc should have been just before the weapons or on the last page.

Davor wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Hoboy. Didnt take long for these threads to start did it?

If somebody fields that if I ever play again I am going to loose. Why will I loose? I will be going "HO HO HO" throughout out the game, I will forget what to do. I mean, how can I even fantom of hurting good old ST Nick.


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 Random Dude wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Plus, we are going to see SW allies for many imperial armies, because who doesn't want empty drop pods for their friends?

Why do you want empty drop pods?

For objective grabbing. AV12 can be surprisingly hard to remove for some armies.

Thank you for explaining.

Its for your battle brother Imperial friends to jump in. Think Ogryns... etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:

Was the Ork codex set out like this?

Yes.

 Sillycybin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.

170 points to maybe kill 12 MEQs in a game undercosted, lol, whatever you say.

If 12 marines is all you can kill in a game with a Heldrake, that reflects more on you than it does the unit.

So far, I've played 2 games with the new book, and have been quite happy with the new book, I love the point decrease to TWC, Njal's new point cost makes him a lot more appealing to field now. Nothing in this book makes me scream "THAT'S GARBAGE! WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!" but stuff like removing mark of the wulfen and removing talismans and the necklace are just things that are bummers, but nothing severe. So to answer the OP's question, I'm not disappointed with the new SW codex, but am quite happy with it, but that's my personal opinion,

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.

170 points to maybe kill 12 MEQs in a game undercosted, lol, whatever you say.

If 12 marines is all you can kill in a game with a Heldrake, that reflects more on you than it does the unit.

Or they actually properly space their units.

I guess all flamers and blast weapons are useless then, eh? That's why no one ever takes the Tyrannofex. <-- Sarcasm.

I'm aware that CSM is in a bad spot- there's no need to start a pity party about it though. Point is, the 'Drake being one of a very small number of decent units in the codex doesn't justify it having the ability to spontaneously swallow its mouth-mounted gun and shove it out its ass or it hands so that it could target units from any angle. That was dumb from both an aesthetic and balance perspective, and GW did the right thing by returning it to its original state of being a hull-mounted weapon.

Chaos players shouldn't be mad about the 'Drake getting nerfed so much as they should be mad that CSM's internal balance is so crap that nerfing a unit that deserved it shattered the competitive playability of the entire faction.

To the complaining Chaos players, two wrongs don't make a right. Better put, just because they failed to make a good Chaos book doesn't make it right that they gut other books, too. Use this as more ammunition on why you should play other games that don't invalidate armies upon releasing rules updates, but give you more options to play that build upon your old styles.

Or keep complaining about every GW release.

Force the Narrative, Ya'll!

Honestly if GW was any sort of competent gaming company, they would do frequent erratas to fix balance issues(for free).

That came off more bashing of GW than I meant. I enjoy 40k, but they could do a much better job with balance.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.

170 points to maybe kill 12 MEQs in a game undercosted, lol, whatever you say.

If 12 marines is all you can kill in a game with a Heldrake, that reflects more on you than it does the unit.

Or they actually properly space their units.

Tank shock never happens, of course

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I guess all flamers and blast weapons are useless then, eh?

I'm aware that CSM is in a bad spot- there's no need to start a pity party about it though. Point is, the 'Drake being one of a very small number of decent units in the codex doesn't justify it having the ability to spontaneously swallow its mouth-mounted gun and shove it out its ass or it hands so that it could target units from any angle. That was dumb from both an aesthetic and mechanical perspective, and GW did the right thing by returning it to its original state of being a hull-mounted weapon.

Chaos players should be buttmad less about the Heldrake being reduced to a sensible unit and more that CSM's internal balance is so crap that reducing it to a sensible unit shattered the faction's competitive playability.

Except as been proven it could move its head as it wills, it's a Daemon Engine and all that.

Sad thing is even with the 360 Chaos was near the tail end of tournament wins, with SoB ahead of them even.

Also we are, haven't you read any CSM topic?

 Sillycybin wrote:
All I am saying is that the heldrake's current profile shouldn't be more expensive, nothing about the turret mounting.

Fair enough.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except as been proven it could move its head as it wills, it's a Daemon Engine and all that.

Sad thing is even with the 360 Chaos was near the tail end of tournament wins, with SoB ahead of them even.

Also we are, haven't you read any CSM topic?

It's a sad state of affairs, yeah. On the other hand though, I think that if the power-level of the last four codices is any indication of how the 7th edition meta is going to look, CSM may be able to make a come back. They match up quite fairy with Tyranids, Guard, Orks and Space Wolves.

... a man can hope, anyway.