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However the number of things that can instagib a T5 model have also decreased for the most part. There just isn't as much S10 on the board anymore and depending on how the psychic phase went librarians may not have enough warp dice to charge their force weapons.

Also DPs dont get to rock the 3+ inv save, so for myself I dont have an issue with the lost of purchasable EW.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

Agreed. Unfortunately, my FLGS doesn't have the codex in stock, so I'll probably have to wait another week.

You're dang right!

I'm gonna have devestator Grav-turions pouring our of two of them, along with Tigirius and Severin Loth, and maybe two 10 man squads of legion of the damn arriving in pods too just so I can drop them in turn one.

 Jayden63 wrote:
However the number of things that can instagib a T5 model have also decreased for the most part. There just isn't as much S10 on the board anymore and depending on how the psychic phase went librarians may not have enough warp dice to charge their force weapons.

Also DPs dont get to rock the 3+ inv save, so for myself I dont have an issue with the lost of purchasable EW.

Getting smashed on a 5++ isn't exactly fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?

Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?

Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.

How is he still not a character assassin. I can count the number of guys on one hand that can kill a T5 4 wound model at initiative. Let alone one with a 2+/3++ save. And once your talking S10, unwieldy AP2 weapons that number drops to 2.

I find that people are just too afraid of instagibbing. T5 is a real game changer when it comes to what one should be afraid to field.

A lot of people have it easy playing SW and yet some people are complaining the loss of Eternal Warrior? After all, there are a few codices that don't have Eternal Warrior at all, and have a harder time playing.

Try playing Tyranids

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?

Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.

How is he still not a character assassin. I can count the number of guys on one hand that can kill a T5 4 wound model at initiative. Let alone one with a 2+/3++ save. And once your talking S10, unwieldy AP2 weapons that number drops to 2.

I find that people are just too afraid of instagibbing. T5 is a real game changer when it comes to what one should be afraid to field.

If I ran my lord on a Thunderwolf, then I would not be afraid of ID, but I don't (simply because I've had the model since 3rd edition). I have to worry more about artillery, stray lascannons, etc and now powerfists and MCs. That said, I'm somewhat sad about this, but I'm totally going to adapt.

I will likely run my TWC a lot more now though.

Davor wrote:
A lot of people have it easy playing SW and yet some people are complaining the loss of Eternal Warrior? After all, there are a few codices that don't have Eternal Warrior at all, and have a harder time playing.

Try playing Tyranids

Hey, I play Nids as well, and I definitely feel the pain. Stupid, stupid, stupid Codex...

I never took EW before, so I don't miss it now

 TheKbob wrote:
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?

It's looking like the only way to go for the time being, though the other games to play are just getting better and more plentiful.

 Yonan wrote:
I'm also amused that SWs now get to bypass eternal warrior. "Not so eternal warrior" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

What, helfrost? No no no no, that is ensuring the EW. Helfrost states that they instantly encase their targets in blocks of ice and if they cant break free they are entombed forever aka eternally. Helfrost just makes sure that the EW character will be eternal. That dudes might die one day, but eternally encased in ice? He will be forever!

 Yonan wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?

It's looking like the only way to go for the time being, though the other games to play are just getting better and more plentiful.

5th anyone? There weren't any stupid, broken, annoying game mechanics in 5th. OH WAIT....


Sad.

Compared to 7th and 6th, 5th was Nerdvana.

Ehmmm... wat?


No... just... no....

I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.

Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads.

Yeah sounds much better than now. *sarcasm*

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

The ALMIGHTY POWERFUL SPACE MARINES or Grey Knights, hiding and cowering in vehicles for 4 or so turns, and then finally on the last turn they come out to play. Actually no they didn't come out to play. They just stayed in the vehicles.

It basically went pew pew, nobody does much because they are too scared to move and then LAST TURN, vehicle rush to claim objectives. Does not make for a fun game when people need to win with plastic toy soldiers.

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads.

Yeah sounds much better than now. *sarcasm*

In comparison, yeah, actually.

The gap between GKs and other armies was far smaller than the gap between TauDar or WS spam and other armies.

And Riflemen? Riflemen? Ha, that's a good one!

Triple Psyflemen was a thing, sure. Riflemen... seriously, good one man. Got me crackin' up over here.

I'm not sure Razorback spam was ever a problem. An annoying build, sure, but a problem on the scale of WS spam? Nah, I don't think so.

The problems for 5th were OP Grey knights, Space Wolves and (on release) BA.

Besides, I never said 5th was perfect. Just a damn sight better than the mess that was 6th or 7th. Reminding you all that Daemon factory either is or was a thing. But this is OT, Space Wolf discussion go.

Triple Psyflemen was a thing, sure. Riflemen... seriously, good one man. Got me crackin' up over here.

I'm not sure Razorback spam was ever a problem. An annoying build, sure, but a problem on the scale of WS spam? Nah, I don't think so.

So you don't remember any tournament lists from that era do you? Riflemen was a common stunlocker to keep vehicles glanced and useless.

My problem with 5th was if dice were going the right way Vehicles never died. One I watch a single Rhino take about 20 Las-Cannon Glances/Pens during a game and all it lost was one of its Storm Bolters

Let's also not forget the Warp Quake shenanigan!.

 Anpu42 wrote:
My problem with 5th was if dice were going the right way Vehicles never died. One I watch a single Rhino take about 20 Las-Cannon Glances/Pens during a game and all it lost was one of its Storm Bolters

Vehicles died just fine, yeah you could get instances like the above, but then you can also get the same thing with anything else, that last Sergeant that refuses to fail his 3+ save or that Grot you roll half a dozen 1's to wound, etc. Even running relatively extreme tank-spam lists in 5th, it wasn't at all uncommon to lose huge numbers of them, and I can recall more than one game with 20+ dead tanks on the field. Especially with the types of armies which were prevalent at the time (e.g. SW gunlines with 20+ S8/9 48" range guns, etc).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.

Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.

Hey, at least you could get a game done in well under 4 hours in 5th... hell, set-up in 6th edition always takes at least an hour...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?

Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.

Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.

Hey, at least you could get a game done in well under 4 hours in 5th... hell, set-up in 6th edition always takes at least an hour...

Oh that's very true, I'm just pointing out the issues as he asked about.

That's odd, normally ten minutes or so, even with daemons.

Well since we're hijacking this thread to talk about better versions of the game - 2ND EDITION!!!!! (and the fans go wild!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, speaking as a staunch 2nd Ed die-hard, I quite like 7th Ed

I'm delighted with it! There was a lot of rumours that boded ill for us and they weren't true. Grey Hunters didn't lose 2 ccw which would have taken all the fun out of them for me. Ok so we have to pay a few more points for hunters and wg combi-weapons, and no longer get ridiculously cheap hb razorbacks but I'm ok with GW attempting to balance undercosted units and weapons, its more than offset by the fact that they've now made bloodclaws affordable. Thunderwolves@40pt basic aren't such a points sink now either. Sane points cost for equipping wolf guard with jump packs, bikes, and th/ss. The way I see it, It's opened up a load of options for army building.

One thing Iu wasn't too impressed with it is the aesthetics of the new units. Bjorn and the ven dread are fine. Murderfang would look fine too except I'll be covering that silly exposed head. I'd prefer to convert a Storm Raven than use the flying bricks they gave us, and as for Santa's sled, as much as I love thunderwolves, methings I'll be convering my own Logan Grimnar...

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.

RIP Marbo... But seriously I don't have a problem with the new codex. Although I don't play them myself, I've looked through it.

yeah I do see patern where people not playing a codex, say it is ok , if it loses stuff.

One dude here bought an interesting SW army today. A lot twc and twc mounter characters and a ton of flying msu units and drop pods.

Makumba wrote:
yeah I do see patern where people not playing a codex, say it is ok , if it loses stuff.

One dude here bought an interesting SW army today. A lot twc and twc mounter characters and a ton of flying msu units and drop pods.

That's going to pretty much be the standard competitive cookie cutter build methinks.