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 vipoid wrote:
As a question, isn't the bonus to snapshots one of the main selling points of Tesla?

If it gets removed, I'm just trying to understand why you'd ever take it over gauss.

because it still is statistically better over Gauss (Excepting Vehicles) outside of rapidfire range.

 Sasori wrote:

because it still is statistically better over Gauss (Excepting Vehicles) outside of rapidfire range.

And statistically worse everywhere else.

 vipoid wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

because it still is statistically better over Gauss (Excepting Vehicles) outside of rapidfire range.

And statistically worse everywhere else.

Look at the new weapon for the space wolves, its similar, and on snapshots does not get the extra hits. You should fully expect the same treatment for tesla.

 Orock wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

because it still is statistically better over Gauss (Excepting Vehicles) outside of rapidfire range.

And statistically worse everywhere else.

Look at the new weapon for the space wolves, its similar, and on snapshots does not get the extra hits. You should fully expect the same treatment for tesla.

I don't think anyone is objectively thinking that it won't get the SW treatment.

Why would it get the same treatment?

I hope they don't give us psychic powers. It makes no sense for us to be using the warp in the same way that others do. however I hope that to makeup for this complete lack of phase that they revamp Pariah's into a potent anti psyker unit with some nice Deny the witch boons.

Tekron wrote:
It's interesting to see people that seem to have a chip on their shoulder come in here and demand nerfs to an army that is good but not overpowered.

I don't think appealing to nostalgic memories of 4th edition is going to gather much support. "Hey guys remember how we used to have our army get rolled up by enemy CC units before phasing out for an auto-loss? We should return to those traditional weaknesses!"

I find it more interesting to see necron players try to pass off their top tier army as "not as good as everybody let's on" because even they know that its on the way to Nerf-ville. Suddenly T5 and S5 with available 2+/3++ is "weak" in combat,and MSS are useless ( then why bother keeping them?). Against every army not pulled from Codex: Elder, Necrons almost always have the edge. Most non-necron players don't want to see major nerfs, we just want GW to bring some of the external balance down to non-eldar levels, and clean up all the f'd up mechanics.

I'm hoping they include the Transcendent C'Tan in the codex as a Lord of war, with toned down rules. It originally was built to compete in the stupid powerful Destroyer weapon environment, but Destroyer got hit with a well deserved nerf bat, but the Tran-CTan was only minimally effected damage output wise, making it disproportionately powerful. Especially for it's tiny size.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I find it more interesting to see necron players try to pass off their top tier army as "not as good as everybody let's on" because even they know that its on the way to Nerf-ville. Suddenly T5 and S5 with available 2+/3++ is "weak" in combat,and MSS are useless ( then why bother keeping them?). Against every army not pulled from Codex: Elder, Necrons almost always have the edge. Most non-necron players don't want to see major nerfs, we just want GW to bring some of the external balance down to non-eldar levels, and clean up all the f'd up mechanics.

Because it's the truth?
-They have an average win chance of 50-55%.
-Overlords don't stop the enemy form Sweeping your unit. S/T 5 and a 2+/3++ with MSS is not really going to help.
-You have to spam four flyers if you want to make a decent chance on a tournament.
-One of two armies that reached top 16 didn't even take MSS, despite having Overlords on Barges (next to Destroyer Lords the only unit where MSS is worth it).

Most players want 'nerfs' where they should be: In the price-cost of Flyers, Barges and a bit on Wraiths.
But many non-Necron players are usually complaining about MSS, Tesla and Reanimation Protocol.
Nerfing those three things will change NOTHING in tournaments or the 'strongest' lists that they can take.

Kangodo wrote:
Why would it get the same treatment?

Because your shooting was not meant to be BETTER while snap shooting.

They're either going to nuke the hell out of the entire codex, deleting half of their special characters and downgrading the rest to obscurity...


or more likely due to them not being IOM... Buff them to supremecy... No in between.

 Pyeatt wrote:
They're either going to nuke the hell out of the entire codex, deleting half of their special characters and downgrading the rest to obscurity...


or more likely due to them not being IOM... Buff them to supremecy... No in between.

I hope it's the second one. Be nice to have an even playing field vs. GN for a change.

I don't know.. I played a solid list of the new GK vs IG, I won but it was neck and neck, both of us fighting ruthlessly for points. Then again, played another game against chaos marines and I ate faces.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

I find it more interesting to see necron players try to pass off their top tier army as "not as good as everybody let's on" because even they know that its on the way to Nerf-ville. Suddenly T5 and S5 with available 2+/3++ is "weak" in combat,and MSS are useless ( then why bother keeping them?). Against every army not pulled from Codex: Elder, Necrons almost always have the edge. Most non-necron players don't want to see major nerfs, we just want GW to bring some of the external balance down to non-eldar levels, and clean up all the f'd up mechanics.

Necrons are on the edge of top tier and mid tier. Exactly where codex writers should be aiming for really, so their external balance is almost perfect. They are not better than Eldar, SM, Daemons, AM or the Tau. They are better than CSM, Nids, Orks, DE and Sororitas. I'm guessing it's players of the worse armies that want them brought down, but objectively an overall nerf is a terrible idea, especially as GW presumably want to sell more models, and I don't think they can rely purely on sales of Wave Serpents and Drop Pods.

You can call the mechanics f'd up, but that is how the army works, and for a lot of people variety is why 40k is fun. You aren't grasping the widespread implications of the nerfs you propose because you don't have experience with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

I don't think anyone is objectively thinking that it won't get the SW treatment.

I think that it likely won't. Given the rapid pace of new codex releases, and the pretty minimal effort that is being put into them, large changes like that require too much re-balancing to bother with. Necrons lack skyfire and they need their vehicles able to jink. A complete mechanics overhaul (Tesla, RP, MSS) seems unlikely to me, when instead they could just shift some points costs around, release two or three new plastic models and clean up some of the more painfully worded special rules.

Tekron you could replace the word necron with ork in your post and sum up exactly how orks felt before our last codex. It might seem to you like any changes to the negative would be assanine and detrimental to the game, but its far more likely than going the other direction. They are on a power slope if the recent past is any indication.

Orks thought they were top tier with their 4th edition codex? I'm a bit surprised about that.

I don't think individual nerfs would be asinine or detrimental to the game. Some stuff will get better and some worse, that is the nature of updates. But the changes non-necron players propose have much further reaching consequences than they seem to be aware of. It's fine if they do end up doing it, because play-testing will force them into making up for the losses in other areas.

I do think an overall Necron nerf would be ridiculous, but I haven't seen that happen in any codex since Nids, and that was partly because some overpowered units that didn't have models got removed. Maybe you feel differently but I don't think Orks got worse.

I'm not expecting a huge sea shift out of the next codex.

I'm really hoping for a buff for Monoliths, I don't really even care what, but something to improve their utility. They look realky cool on the board.

I expect Imotek will become a Lord of War, and the Escalation models will be wrapped in, rules as is. Cool, applicable warlord traits and artifacts are almost certain and i look forward to playing with those.


It also would be really cooll, and this could happen, if some of those apocalypse formations made their way in there. I'd love to run Infinnite Phalanx (or 2) in a standard game.

I just want Overlords to be able to get 3++ versions of the Lychguard shields

I was thinking about it, and I believe Monoliths could be fixed by making them DS like drop pods, and letting them teleport off into DS reserves and come on next turn. Or give them a Veil of Darkness equivalent that is limited to only being used if it was not used in previous turn.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


I find it more interesting to see necron players try to pass off their top tier army as "not as good as everybody let's on" because even they know that its on the way to Nerf-ville. Suddenly T5 and S5 with available 2+/3++ is "weak" in combat,and MSS are useless ( then why bother keeping them?). Against every army not pulled from Codex: Elder, Necrons almost always have the edge. Most non-necron players don't want to see major nerfs, we just want GW to bring some of the external balance down to non-eldar levels, and clean up all the f'd up mechanics.

There are no f'ed up mechanics in the book, besides MSS being a little wonky. But most of the time, MSS isn't even worth it. And yes, T5 and 2+/3++ is very tough, but on a unit that's I2 with 3 attacks at WS4 isn't going to do much. They get swept all the time. They're also more expensive off the bat than, say, a Chaos Lord, and would probably lose one on one. Also, Necrons have little access to AP2, so how do they have an edge over everything except from elder? Also, "non-elder" levels is a bad idea. The only really OP thing with Eldar, which is also why they are pretty bad off internally as far as balance goes, is the Wave Serpent. Once that's fixed in their new book, Eldar will not be NEARLY as op as they are now. In fact, the Eldar codex is what every other codex SHOULD be (besides the WS), if GW wasn't stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:

Look at the new weapon for the space wolves, its similar, and on snapshots does not get the extra hits. You should fully expect the same treatment for tesla.

The only issue with this is that if this happens, and they still raise the price of A-barges, or don't do anything to change them, people will stop using them, I guarantee. paying 100~ points for pretty much one gun that now does next to nothing if it snap fires? No, people will use other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:
I just want Overlords to be able to get 3++ versions of the Lychguard shields

Uhhh, that probably wouldn't happen. But, I hope Lychguard get cheaper/have access to Sempiternal weaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

 Orock wrote:

orks, actually. And I was serious, these are changes I would like to see, which is what the title of the thread is. How many of them come true has nothing to do with my wishes. However I would bet more of mine come true than some of the wishlisting here.

Wow, someone gets beat a lot by Necrons..

The only thing I can see coming true in that list, is the no tesla hits on Snapshots (Ala SWs) and The T-C'tan getting a points increase.

Yeah, his list is literally saying "Oh, you played Necrons? Well, not anymore. Here's some bland guns that can shoot back. That's it"

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


I find it more interesting to see necron players try to pass off their top tier army as "not as good as everybody let's on" because even they know that its on the way to Nerf-ville. Suddenly T5 and S5 with available 2+/3++ is "weak" in combat,and MSS are useless ( then why bother keeping them?). Against every army not pulled from Codex: Elder, Necrons almost always have the edge. Most non-necron players don't want to see major nerfs, we just want GW to bring some of the external balance down to non-eldar levels, and clean up all the f'd up mechanics.

There are no f'ed up mechanics in the book, besides MSS being a little wonky.

Really? Just take a glance through a few YMDC pages for issues resulting from Necrons crazy mechanics. EL vs Sweeping Advance? RP and EL vs helfrost? Heck, RP and EL versus that tesseract maze doohickey! RP has caused more rules arguments than any other special rule in my group. What about the CCB joining units? Imotekh's lightning strikes, where do they come from, are they shooting attacks, does he have to be on the table? Imotekh using a cryptek reroll but doesn't actually shoot the lightning or have to be on the table simply makes no sense. Ghost arks adding warriors when only the cryptek remains, or is that adding crypteks?

The point is, there is a reason the necron codex has had the largest FAQ for two editions now.

And actually, the Elder codex should NOT be the model all codexes follow. IMHO, the new Space Wolves codex is the model codex. It removed the infuriating BS stuff every non SW player hated, added new units, restored a good bit of internal balance, and restored a significant amount of external balance, all while maintaining the fluff of the army.

-That's because of crappy wording on Sweeping Advance, not because of EL.
-Nothing crazy about that, people just don't like it.
-CCB's can join units, not because their rules are crazy but because GW forgot to implement a rule that makes them lose IC (which they did for Daemons and Space Wolves).
-Imothek can be in Reserved and you get a lightning storm. Why wouldn't it make sense? His storm is explained in his fluff, it's not something that he does himself.

So what do we have?
-GW forgot to say 'Necron Warrior Models' and only told us to add 'models'.
-It's "unclear" where the lightning comes from even though everything points to 'from above'.

But I think you misunderstood what they ment with "f'd up mechanics".

While I am pretty much all on board the "most suggested necron nerfs are dumb" train. Our codex really is a mess rule wise with too many things working strangely. Do barges benefit from phase shifters? Can the Doom Scythe allocate wounds to things oolos? The examples are numerous and even when situations have cleared up, wonky rule things is not a good source of power. I would rather having the codex just work than having it work by use of rule interpretation.

Not saying people are wrong for going to the rules and making calls based on it, that is pretty much required whatever you play, but especially so when necrons are involved. Just give me a codex with cleared up rules and no longer super heavy reliance on Tesla destructor/ Wraith spam. Externally necrons do not have the weakest or the strongest codex. Wheteher the new codex should be more powerful, less so or about the same has more to do with overall power level and what GW:s vision of overall power level for the game is. Shame that vision seems cloudy, at the least.

Orock wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Why would it get the same treatment?

Because your shooting was not meant to be BETTER while snap shooting.

Uh, Tesla weapons aren't better while snap-shooting than when not snap-shooting. They're still objectively worse than when being fired at normal ballistic skill.

It's not like they suddenly get twinlinked. They still only have a one in six chance of causing three hits.

Anyway, anyone who says "remove the Gauss rule!" is just... what? That's been the Necron thing since second edition, back when it was basically melta but better. Removing Gauss from Necrons would be like giving Space Marines lasguns. Can you imagine a Space Marine in power armour with a lasgun?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not like they suddenly get twinlinked.

They are Twin-linked

The problem with a lot of suggestions is that people don't really understand the Codex and its weaknesses.

Like the removal of Gauss: Since when is Gauss an issue?
Warriors aren't good enough to take a lot of them. On tournaments they are taken in groups of 5.
Five warriors only strip away half a hullpoint (or 1 within 12").
5 Tactical Marines can take a Multi-melta that guarantees a Penetrating hit within 12"
Or they can take a Lascannon to deal with vehicles that are 48" away.
Or even Graviton that, with 3 shots, can glance a vehicle and Immobilize them.

Kangodo wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not like they suddenly get twinlinked.

They are Twin-linked

The problem with a lot of suggestions is that people don't really understand the Codex and its weaknesses.

Like the removal of Gauss: Since when is Gauss an issue?
Warriors aren't good enough to take a lot of them. On tournaments they are taken in groups of 5.
Five warriors only strip away half a hullpoint (or 1 within 12").
5 Tactical Marines can take a Multi-melta that guarantees a Penetrating hit within 12"
Or they can take a Lascannon to deal with vehicles that are 48" away.
Or even Graviton that, with 3 shots, can glance a vehicle and Immobilize them.

Yes, but the Space Marines want all the good stuff, and have nothing remotely powerful? Graviton? Yeah no, those are just fine, and are by no means unneccesary.

Kangodo wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not like they suddenly get twinlinked.

They are Twin-linked

The problem with a lot of suggestions is that people don't really understand the Codex and its weaknesses.

Uh, the only twin-linked Tesla weapons are the Twin-linked Tesla Destructor on the Annihilation Barge and the fliers - which, as vehicles, can't overwatch (although they can snap-fire at fliers, I suppose).

Regular Tesla Carbines are not twin-linked.

Aah yes, I thought we were talking about the Barges and Fliers.

Nah, the subject was: "Tesla is overpowered because it's better when snap firing than when firing normally", which... it isn't.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, the subject was: "Tesla is overpowered because it's better when snap firing than when firing normally", which... it isn't.

It really isn't. Nothing is more effective snap firing, as much as you guys would like to argue.