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Mostly for the outflank and the ability to take more than 2 HQs.

Jefffar wrote:
Mostly for the outflank and the ability to take more than 2 HQs.

But outflank isn't that good and you can take plenty of HQs from multiple CADs... Obsec is way better than 6 HQs.

So a troops unit could buy a drop pod not start in it, but that empty pod would still up your total pod count and have objective secured, right? (Place a random objective somewhere and force the other guy to shoot at an empty pod if he wants it).

 pretre wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Mostly for the outflank and the ability to take more than 2 HQs.

But outflank isn't that good and you can take plenty of HQs from multiple CADs... Obsec is way better than 6 HQs.

Outflank is pretty terrible indeed. Even with acute senses. Same problem with drop pods and deep striking. You will enter play.... And stand there for a turn. As we're talking tactics I've heard a lot of people saying they will outflank big units of TWC.... Well I hope you take loads of SS, cos they're going to get hammered!

Personally I would outflank a vindicators or something if I could.

But I do see a bonus to the wolves unleashed, and that's the ability to guarantee the entry of one reserve per turn. With units like the storm fang in the army now I think that's pretty huge. Knowing that big hellfrost ap3 large blast is DEFINITELY coming in is awesome.

If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.

 pretre wrote:
Why would someone take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment? You can just take a CAD of SW.

Yeah I agree, in a regular list, losing Objective Secured is ridiculous.

Well outflanking in an AV 12 flyer that is immune to Melta certainly ups the survival rate and it means that even on the wrong side of the board (unlikely with Accute Senses) you can be in range to assault something the turn after you arrive, even if it's not your preferred target.

Since when wouldn't you e able to assault coming in off the normal edge?

Since all of 6th edition.....

 Leth wrote:
Since all of 6th edition.....

I was referring to Jeffars statement that outflank was somehow better because you could assault the turn after you arrive from the flyer. You can do the same without outflank.

The Outflank + Flyer combo lets you deliver the Bloodclaws virtually anywhere in the board protected by Melta-ignoring, needs Skyfire to hit, AV 12.

This means the Bloodclaws will get through almsot every time without taking casualties.

The odds of this go up considerably if you landed one of your turn 1 drop pods next to your opponent's AA source.

You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?

It gives you different angles which is a nice alternative. Especially with the limited LOS of the stormfangs

 Leth wrote:
It gives you different angles which is a nice alternative. Especially with the limited LOS of the stormfangs

But LOS has nothing to do with assault.

If you can't get anywhere on th board with a flyer in two turns, 'more angles' won't help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And stormfangs aren't assault vehicles...

I was talking about in general, not necessarily in whatever context you guys were talking about

Relics of the Fang
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following

you can replace one weapon with one relic, not any weapon with a relic.

1 relic per character.

blaktoof wrote:
Relics of the Fang
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following

you can replace one weapon with one relic, not any weapon with a relic.

1 relic per character.

Read the annotations beside the Wulfenstone, Armor of Russ, and Helm of Durfast. They specifically do not replace a weapon.

that does not mean they can take more than one relic.

that means that some of the one relics they can take do not replace a weapon.

That... doesn't even make sense. Nowhere in the text does it say one relic per character. It says one weapon for one relic, and one of each relic per army. Since three of them do not require a weapon to be traded, there's no reason you can't take them and a weapon relic.

It says a model may replace a weapon with one of the following.

some of the following do not require you to give up a weapon by the note of "6"

however that does not take away that you only get to take one of the following.

that they are limited to one for one weapon, and some do not require you to give up a weapon does not take away that you are still limited to one.

blaktoof wrote:
It says a model may replace a weapon with one of the following.

some of the following do not require you to give up a weapon by the note of "6"

however that does not take away that you only get to take one of the following.

that they are limited to one for one weapon, and some do not require you to give up a weapon does not take away that you are still limited to one.

One for one weapon.

I did not give up a weapon.

Thus I may still give up a weapon to take a relic.

A discussion better left to YMDC, so I'll leave that final interpretation and drop it.

 pretre wrote:
You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?

Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.

Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.

Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.

All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.

blaktoof wrote:
It says a model may replace a weapon with one of the following.

some of the following do not require you to give up a weapon by the note of "6"

however that does not take away that you only get to take one of the following.

that they are limited to one for one weapon, and some do not require you to give up a weapon does not take away that you are still limited to one.

It say you can replace One Weapon for One of the Following.
There are 3 of them that do not replace a Weapon.
So you can take One as a replacement of a Weapon.
The other Three either have no Restrictions on number as none are listed OR Because you can't Replace a Weapon with one of them you cant take ANY.

It has to be the first, there are NO Restrictions other than only one can be taken in place of a Weapon.

The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.

One relic per character

blaktoof wrote:
The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.

One relic per character

The most literal interpretation of it dictates that anything that doesn't require a weapon replacement cannot be taken, since the rule says you may replace one weapon for one of the following. So I guess if you can't replace a weapon for it, you can't take it.

blaktoof wrote:
The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.

One relic per character

No where does it say that, the two Restrictions Are:
>Only One of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per Army.
>A Model Can Replace One Weapon with One of the Following.

So All of them can be taken by the Army
Each Model Can replace One Weapon for One Relic.

Three of them have a 6 after them.
6] Does not Replace One of the Characters Weapons.

blaktoof wrote:
The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.

One relic per character

It says, and I quote "These artefacts are items of incredible rarity, ancient heirlooms that are carefully maintained and stored within the impregnable armouries of the Fang. Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army."

And then if we pop over to say, The Wolf Lord page, it says "May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of the Fang lists". Items means plural.

Then on the equipment page it says, under Relics of the Fang, "Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:"

Doesn't say anywhere that a character can only take one relic, only that one of each relic can be in the entire army. There is a small annotation next to a few of the items that reads "Does not replace one of the character's weapons"

Hopefully that helps clear things up.

The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.

Mavnas wrote:
The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.

And what would be the wording on that?

Jefffar wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?

Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.

Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.

Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.

All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.

flyers move 36 the first tyrn, fire for full effect, 12 under hover (2 plus machine spirit) disembark 6 and charge 2d6. That's 54 to 66 inches not counting flat out. That should get you across the board even without outflank.