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Outflanking Grey Hunters {Note the plural} can really change up the game.
The same with Swift Claws/Wolf Guard Bikers, heck the threat of TWC puts you opponent in the Defensive.
It also let you get units in place in your opponents backfield for Line-Breaker and objective Stealing.
And lets not forget a Land Raider Crusader filled with Blood Claws.
You opponent will know they are out there and with Acute Senses he will never know where they will be coming from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 05:14:09
pretre wrote: You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?
Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.
Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.
Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.
All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.
flyers move 36 the first tyrn, fire for full effect, 12 under hover (2 plus machine spirit) disembark 6 and charge 2d6. That's 54 to 66 inches not counting flat out. That should get you across the board even without outflank.
You cant fly 12 when you want to disembark, only 6" allowed. The disembark and assault move might be obstructed, it would be hard to charge something in their back lines.
Mavnas wrote: The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.
And what would be the wording on that?
Actually... I take that back. It seems to be the same now.
I now agree with you that only one relic can be taken per character. I notice the special issue wargear list says:
A model can take up to one of each of the following:
Champions of Fenris- Okay, so you know the 6 Dataslates I already listed? The Champions of Fenris dataslate requires you take ALL of them. If you do, all models in all formations get:
Fear (lol)
Fearless
While Logan is alive, all non-vehicles reroll failed to-hit rolls in CC.
While the Iron Priest is alive, all vehicles get IWND! (hello Brethren of the Fell-Handed!)
While Njal is alive, all models get Adamantium Will.
While Ulrik is alive, all models get Preferred Enemy.
I'll leave it to someone else to figure out the point costs associated, but considering the number of Wolf Guard Terminators you need it's going to be hefty. Still, the picture for that dataslate is beyond epic!
2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'll just continue running two plasma/melta and CCW and go from there. It's a little more expensive than last time, but can still do what it's been doing for 5 years o just as well. It clocks in at 190 points, or 225 with a transport.
I might try 5-men-1-special as an MSU list at some point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 14:33:34
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: That doesn't mean one relic per character. It means one of EACH of the relics listed a.k.a. multiple relics can be taken.
you can take one of each relic.
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following:
a character may replace one weapon for one of the following.
Let us look at the above sentence. A character is allowed one of the following, they replace a weapon for it.
some of the items do not require you to replace the weapon.
not replacing the weapon does not mean you also get to ignore that you are allowed "one of the following" as it is not a modification to that part of the rule but to the replacing of an item.
its the same reason you cannot replace one weapon and take one relic, and then replace another one weapon and get another one relic.
You are only allowed one relic per character, and some of them do not require you to give up a weapon the character already has to take as noted by footnote 6.
This is quite germane to the tactica thread as some people are tying to take a wolf lord with 2-4 relics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 17:19:36
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following:
a character may replace one weapon for one of the following.
Let us look at the above sentence. A character is allowed one of the following, they replace a weapon for it.
That's not what it says at all. The only limit is that only one weapon can be replaced. If I replace my Bolt Pistol with the Fangs of Fenris, then buy the Armor of Russ, I have still only "replace[d] one weapon with one of the [relics]:". The sentence doesn't specify how many relics may be taken, only how many weapons may be replaced.
Edit:
its the same reason you cannot replace one weapon and take one relic, and then replace another one weapon and get another one relic.
You are only allowed one relic per character, and some of them do not require you to give up a weapon the character already has to take as noted by footnote 6.
The reason you can not replace one weapon with one of the relics, and then replace another weapon with of the relics, is that you have then replaced two weapons. There is no rule written that specifies how many relics may be taken, only how many weapons may be replaced. (One)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 18:17:35
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'd rather take 5 Wolf Guard w/ Plasma Pistols over that. 5 WG w/ PP's and DP is 200 points for 5 Plasma Shots. 5 fewer attacks, but WS 5 if you go with the supplement. 63 points in savings is better. Use those points for Blood claws or whatever. Also, you can assault after firing the 5 Plasma shots. The more I think about GH, the more I like simple ccw + flamer. Leave the Tank and Elite busting to other units, they do it better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 19:54:13
Mad_Proctologist wrote: If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.
How about 5 servitors with Multi Meltas in a drop pod - 135 points. Add in an iron priest and they might even survive a turn or 2 with him tanking on his 2+
Mavnas wrote: Is there any unit in this codex that can take 3+ plasma guns?
15 blood claws can get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
10 grey hunters can get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
5 skyclaws can get get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
The skyclaw unit comes in as the cheapest option at about 125 points. Although they are BS 3.
edit, you can take Wolf Scouts and take 5, give 2 plasma pistols, 1 a plasma gun, and upgrade one to a pack leader with combi plasma or a 3rd plasma gun. This with combi plasma on the pack leader is 135pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 22:11:52
Mad_Proctologist wrote: If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.
How about 5 servitors with Multi Meltas in a drop pod - 135 points. Add in an iron priest and they might even survive a turn or 2 with him tanking on his 2+
They snap fire turn 1. At that cost you would need more than hoping they survive a turn.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I'm debating on putting WG on bikes/Jump Packs as they take up an Elite slot (though could be pricey). Having skyclaws for bullet shields and then the TWC bringing up the hammer.
Still working on price points for them though.
Any thoughts on the more flexible way to run WG? Bikes or Jump?
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'd rather take 5 Wolf Guard w/ Plasma Pistols over that. 5 WG w/ PP's and DP is 200 points for 5 Plasma Shots. 5 fewer attacks, but WS 5 if you go with the supplement. 63 points in savings is better. Use those points for Blood claws or whatever. Also, you can assault after firing the 5 Plasma shots. The more I think about GH, the more I like simple ccw + flamer. Leave the Tank and Elite busting to other units, they do it better.
You could dual wield them with bolt pistols and get in 5 bolter shots too, while still keeping +1 attack for 2 weapons. I had a build like this in 6th but ripped them apart to make more grey hunters, I might rebuild them now that I have more models from stormclaw
The other wolfguard option I want to try is all stormbolters, for 20 shots at range 24", couple this with jump packs and You would have a highly mobile ( could get to or get away from enemies) anti infantry squad.
Wolf scouts:
I see a combo with sniper rifles and a heavy bolter for a fire support unit. Or camo cloaks and flak missiles for 105 points for a hidden skyfire missile somewhere on the board (but you coul also split fire 1 skyfire missile out of a long fang pack too.
Skyclaws: MSU packs of 5 skyclaws jumping around with 2 flamers would be hell to enemy infantry.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/13 22:56:43
~ Krieg 6k
~ Necrons 2.5k
~ Space Wolves 5K
~ :Khorne CSM 2k
A 250+ point troop squad is a bad investment. I will be running my GH with CCW and 2 meltas, that's it. No wolf guard, no 25 point unwieldy power fist on a guy with a 3+ save, and no plasma guns that prevent me from firing and charging. Plasma pistols have killed my own GH more than they've killed enemies in the 25~ games I used them in. I have since ripped them all off and replaced with less suicidal weapons.
Toofast wrote: A 250+ point troop squad is a bad investment. I will be running my GH with CCW and 2 meltas, that's it. No wolf guard, no 25 point unwieldy power fist on a guy with a 3+ save, and no plasma guns that prevent me from firing and charging. Plasma pistols have killed my own GH more than they've killed enemies in the 25~ games I used them in. I have since ripped them all off and replaced with less suicidal weapons.
That also depends on your Meta.
In my Meta we all tend to fill up on Wargear and options, so most Troop Choices are in the 250-300+ without Trasports. It actually balances out at the end of the day. *Then again we are not into the competitive scene.
I run ravenwing now so im leaning towards throwing WG with jump packs. However T5 is nothing to throw away. I agrre with the Melta as i dont like using plasma unless there a twin link there, hence RW knights.
I like the skyclaws with flamers too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/13 23:31:51
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
I'm considering adding the following unit to my SW collection.
Canis Wolfborn 185
Wolfpack (5, 1 is cyber) 50
Iron priest, 4 cyber wolves, thunderwolf 165
400pts
Has 11 models (Canis, IP, 5 cyber wolves, 4 fenrisian wolves) They all get stubborn from saga of wolfkin.
on the charge the unit has rampage, Furious charge, and all the wolves/cyber wolves + canis reroll failed to hit rolls.
If they outnumber what they charge, due to being shot at or whatever, then...rampage!
Lets say we lose the 4 normal wolves to shooting before they charge turn 2 and get rampage against a unit.
Canis is 7+d3 str7 ap 3 attacks @ I5 on the charge with reroll hits and reroll wounds.
Iron priest is 5+d3 str 10 attacks ap1 hitting at I 1 or ap2 with concussive
5 cyber wolves are a total of 4+d3(x5)=20+5d3 attacks str 5 @ I 4 with rerolls to hit.
The wolves alone, against an invis unit with the reroll to hit are looking at an average of 9 str 5 hits, canis would add in another 2 str 7 ap 3 hits, and the IP would add in 1 str 10 hit on average.
They would gib almost any other unit short of a insanely huge blob like a greentide.
blaktoof wrote: I'm considering adding the following unit to my SW collection.
Canis Wolfborn 185
Wolfpack (5, 1 is cyber) 50
Iron priest, 4 cyber wolves, thunderwolf 165
400pts
Has 11 models (Canis, IP, 5 cyber wolves, 4 fenrisian wolves) They all get stubborn from saga of wolfkin.
on the charge the unit has rampage, Furious charge, and all the wolves/cyber wolves + canis reroll failed to hit rolls.
If they outnumber what they charge, due to being shot at or whatever, then...rampage!
Lets say we lose the 4 normal wolves to shooting before they charge turn 2 and get rampage against a unit.
Canis is 7+d3 str7 ap 3 attacks @ I5 on the charge with reroll hits and reroll wounds.
Iron priest is 5+d3 str 10 attacks ap1 hitting at I 1 or ap2 with concussive
5 cyber wolves are a total of 4+d3(x5)=20+5d3 attacks str 5 @ I 4 with rerolls to hit.
The wolves alone, against an invis unit with the reroll to hit are looking at an average of 9 str 5 hits, canis would add in another 2 str 7 ap 3 hits, and the IP would add in 1 str 10 hit on average.
They would gib almost any other unit short of a insanely huge blob like a greentide.
thoughts? criticisms?
Long as you can avoid assault Termies or CCWGT you should be decent, as they will shrug off your AP3 attacks, and their hits back will hurt, also, anything with init lowering abilities or init 6+ can shred you before you strike.
This is true, against assault termies however they would still get hit by 22 wounds before initiative 1 happend, even at 2+ save they are losing 3-4 models. assuming no rampaging. at I1 the IP will gib 1 more on average.
assuming 10 termies total, for ~400 points with TH/SS return attacks would be from 7-6 models, we will be generous and say 7, and will cause 10 wounds, which would probably gib all the wolves, leaving canis and the IP who would not be able to finish them off and get gibbed in return leaving 2-3 termies still in the unit.
Why would you take Canis over Harald? He buffs wolves as well doesn't he?
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pretre wrote: Why would you take Canis over Harald? He buffs wolves as well doesn't he?
He is fun to use?
Meh, I thought this was a tactics thread...
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
pretre wrote: Why would you take Canis over Harald? He buffs wolves as well doesn't he?
He is fun to use?
Meh, I thought this was a tactics thread...
True, but there is nothing wrong with a little levity now and then.
I find he is good as a Leader for Fenrisian Wolves.
One trick with him is to take him with his 2 wolves + 2-3 Packs of Wolves. Just before you Assault you break him off from the Wolf Packs and let them make the first Assaults of the Assault Phase eating up Overwatch. Then have him Assault, this will almost always guaranty him being outnumbered. Now you have the choice of letting one of the Cyberwolves issue the challenge or let Canis do it.
Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
thisisnotpancho wrote: Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
Is sounds great, but The Helm of Durfast only affect the model using it.
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester 
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k 
Krieg 6k
Necrons 2.5k
Hyades 1st 5000 
Hive Fleet 5000 
Iyanden 2500
Farsight Enclave 5000 
Ahriman's Guard 2000
Salamanders 3000