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I am actually throwing it on a Wolf guard battle leader. I think on a wolf it is worth saving the 50 points(especially since I am buying the invul anyway) as well as getting preferred enemy(which will benefit the entire unit as well.)

WGBL Kraken, Runic, Storm, T-wolf.

That will mess up almost everything. with 4-5 attacks, preferred enemy at str 6 ap 2. Even better if I can get re-roll hits on the squad.

I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.

I think for a WGBL the Armor of Russ + WC+ PF is a better combo, you get +1 attack and force the enemy down to I1 and then you can choose to hit at I5 S6 AP3 Shred and Rending or go at the same time as the enemy with S9 AP2 (also rending but doesn't matter with AP2 already).

Think of it this way, if you run into PA character, or an Ork Warboss with PK then you want to use the claw, for anything tougher you want that PF handy.

The Runic Armor + PF + SS is a good discount version though, if you're tight on points.

 More Dakka wrote:
I think for a WGBL the Armor of Russ + WC+ PF is a better combo, you get +1 attack and force the enemy down to I1 and then you can choose to hit at I5 S6 AP3 Shred and Rending or go at the same time as the enemy with S9 AP2 (also rending but doesn't matter with AP2 already).

Think of it this way, if you run into PA character, or an Ork Warboss with PK then you want to use the claw, for anything tougher you want that PF handy.

The Runic Armor + PF + SS is a good discount version though, if you're tight on points.

Are you referring more to the Armor of Russ or the PF/WC combo? Former is applicable only under the SW codex, not the Champions of Fenris book (which I believe is what Leth is using). Its initiative reduction value is then only applicable in challenges, if memory serves.

Yeah, just going off the SW codex. I'd mix and match the books personally, the only tax is 2nd HQ choice for the benefit of +1WS units and Obsec troops and transports.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.

Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.

Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.

I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.

Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.

Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah, just going off the SW codex. I'd mix and match the books personally, the only tax is 2nd HQ choice for the benefit of +1WS units and Obsec troops and transports.

Neither book gives obsec....

 Leth wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.

Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.

Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.

I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.

Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.

Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.

Let's see what credible CC threats there are on the competitive 40k table:

Chapter Masters on Bike, Shield Eternal, Artificer Armour
(They strike at I1, and with a 3++ unlikely to go down in a single round of attacks. Powerfist / Sword has marginally the same result )

Daemon Princes / Greater Daemons

(Powerfist clearly superior as you mostly strike after them)

Tyranid Hive Tyrants

(Powerfist clearly superior as they have higher I)

Imperial Knights

(Sword can only hurt them on Rends, Powerfist superior)

Wraithknights

(Sword only wounds on 6's, Powerfist superior)

Phoenix Lords

(Don't have an invuln save but go before you)

Thunderwolf Cavalry

(The only credible threat, mutually assured destruction is the probable outcome. But only if you have a powerfist)

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.

Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.

Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.

I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.

Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.

Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.

Let's see what credible CC threats there are on the competitive 40k table:

Chapter Masters on Bike, Shield Eternal, Artificer Armour
(They strike at I1, and with a 3++ unlikely to go down in a single round of attacks. Powerfist / Sword has marginally the same result )

Daemon Princes / Greater Daemons

(Powerfist clearly superior as you mostly strike after them)

Tyranid Hive Tyrants

(Powerfist clearly superior as they have higher I)

Imperial Knights

(Sword can only hurt them on Rends, Powerfist superior)

Wraithknights

(Sword only wounds on 6's, Powerfist superior)

Phoenix Lords

(Don't have an invuln save but go before you)

Thunderwolf Cavalry

(The only credible threat, mutually assured destruction is the probable outcome. But only if you have a powerfist)

I find myself mostly in agreement of the first over the sword. But what are your thoughts on the black death? Especially when combined with the Wulfen stone. S8 AP2 on the charge. But it's the chance of the extra 3 attacks that attracts me....

Meh, like I said in testing I have missed the AP 2 at init more so than other things. Its not for everyone but it has been what I am missing

I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....

I met a unit of five Thunderwolf cavalry with shields and frost swords, and they were brutal on the charge, causing 12 wounds to a Tactical squad, and we even forgot about HoW

They got cheaper in base cost, the shields now only cost 15 instead of 30, and now the entire unit can take power/frost weapons. Imo this unit is finally good to take, which is nice because it's one of the coolest SW units.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....

Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.

 centuryslayer wrote:
I met a unit of five Thunderwolf cavalry with shields and frost swords, and they were brutal on the charge, causing 12 wounds to a Tactical squad, and we even forgot about HoW

They got cheaper in base cost, the shields now only cost 15 instead of 30, and now the entire unit can take power/frost weapons. Imo this unit is finally good to take, which is nice because it's one of the coolest SW units.

That's a pretty expensive unit but it's also rock solid. I am experimenting with a similar one, but less shields (I want models with shields to tank damage and not be carrying weapons I don't want to lose). They can also be 6 man now, which is great if you aren't going for any defense and just want a mean unit out there -- 6 T-wolves is only about a Land Raider's cost.

My biggest problem is I keep wanting to take Bjorn...but I just still can't justify his point cost. In melee he seems lacking.

 Leth wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....

Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.

Yeah I can see that. I keep trying with a company of the great wolf detachment. 2 x 5 thunderwolfs. 3 Shields. 2 pairs of claws. One powerfist. 2 wolf mounted iron priests. And a lord with the relic sword. And the Re roll to hit relic. Then add a knight paladin and a knight Errant. It's 1850. Don't know if it will/could work....

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....

Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.

Yeah I can see that. I keep trying with a company of the great wolf detachment. 2 x 5 thunderwolfs. 3 Shields. 2 pairs of claws. One powerfist. 2 wolf mounted iron priests. And a lord with the relic sword. And the Re roll to hit relic. Then add a knight paladin and a knight Errant. It's 1850. Don't know if it will/could work....

Its good, and it will probably wreck a lot of people. However it definitely lends itself to a hard counter. I would not bother with the pair of claws. The extra 15 points is not worth the extra attack on the thunderwolves. I would also work in 3 cyber wolves for the iron priests.

So each unit would look something like

5x thunder wolves
3x storm shield
1x claw/storm(on the unit leader)
1x fist
Iron Priest on wolf with three cyber wolves

So recently I have been thinking about grimnar a bunch, he just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore.
Logan grimnar is the cost of a land raider and honestly doesn't seem to have the stats or rules to justify it, here is why I believe that to be.

TWC wolf lord, armor of russ, Power fist, Wolf claw. This loadout is 15pt cheaper than grimnar. It moves 12", gives -5 initiative to enemies in challenges, has 1 more attack, has rending, and shred when striking at initiative. Logans sword is +2S, but the TWC/Claw is also +2, so they are both S6 ap3 at initiative, logan is S8ap2, while the TWC lord is S9/10ap2 (pending FAQ) at initiative 1. Both can choose which weapon to use, which was always Logans big thing, he could hit hard, or light pending on who he fought.

The TWC lord can run units down, logan cannot.
The TWC lord is 12" move, logan is 6"
Logan can deep strike, the TWC lord cannot.
Logan has Eternal Warrior, the TWC lord does not.
Logan can ride a pimp boat, the TWC cannot ride the boat.
Logan is a lord of war, the TWC lord is not.
Logan can go in a transport, the TWC lord cannot (Edited: good point Leth)

Am I missing something about logan? He seems to just be lackluster when compared to a cheaper, arguably better HQ. His lack of special rules is very saddening.

Logan can go in a transport as well

Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread

 Anpu42 wrote:
Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread

It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread

It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.

Though I have not gotten to try him yet, I am looking at a Stormwolf with 5 other Wolf Guard Terminators.
And the Land Raider (Any) is a Good Choice.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread

The TWC lord can also strike at I5 or I1, he just cannot mix them as far as I know. His stats are better than logans in CC, so he should be just as, if not more beastly (+1 S, T, A)
The point cost is another think, does a lord of war take up an HQ slot? If not then you still need at least 65pt for an HQ. I don't really think of a transport cost, as the TWC lord will need a TWC unit to run with.

I do love the synergy thread!

The main reason I thought of this is I was considering buying the logan model. Though I am trying not to buy models I will never field, and I can't really think of a time I would use him. Beautiful model though! It crossed my mind to try to use the TWC that come with it as regular TWC, sort of like how you get 2 free screamers with the burning chariot kit.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread

The TWC lord can also strike at I5 or I1, he just cannot mix them as far as I know. His stats are better than logans in CC, so he should be just as, if not more beastly (+1 S, T, A)
The point cost is another think, does a lord of war take up an HQ slot? If not then you still need at least 65pt for an HQ. I don't really think of a transport cost, as the TWC lord will need a TWC unit to run with.

I do love the synergy thread!

Again I have not run him in 7th, but I have been running him in a 13 Model/15 Model 1,500/2,000 point list that has not lost [don't ask me how, it just does].
He is one of those who on paper looks ok, but once you get him out there just does amazing things. I would say give a try a few times, you might be surprised.
On the Split attack thing, it looks to be nasty with his ability to take out models near him and them move 3" to crush something else.
Logan Claws looks like it could also be devastating.

As he said the ability to split attacks and maximize the initive change is a pretty significant advantage.

that is also something that I forgot to mention about the guy attacking at init 5 with ap 2

Being able to take advantage of different initiative steps is a powerful ability to have combined with movement.

Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.

I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.

Is the pile in really that much worth it?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.

I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.

Is the pile in really that much worth it?

Have not had the HoW issue.

Also Logan is not something you just tack on. He also does not fit every list. If you want to play Logan, build around him.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.

I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.

Is the pile in really that much worth it?

That was more about the conversation we were having earlier about thunderwolf characters with kraken sword or power fist.

Ah, which yeah, kraken sword/powerfist seems like a very potent alternative, and easily one of the best HQ choices in the champions of fenris.

Iron Priests are kind of inefficient.

Thunderwolf + Powerfist: WS 5, 5 Attacks at Str 10, 65 points

Iron Priest: WS4, 6 Attacks at Str 9, (2++ 6++) 105 points

Not sure 40 points is worth losing -1 WS and -1 Str.

Also, why would you arm your TWC frost blades? You take them to do Str 10 attacks, not Str 6...

I plan on going Kraken stormshield on a WGBL or Kraken/nothing on a wolf lord.

Not worth giving up the attack/+1 invul on the wolf lord, but for the battle leader its worth getting the stormshield