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Are you going to be droppoding the long fangs, remember if you do they will be snap firing and this is less reliable than hitting on a 3+. If just using it to help drop pod assault ignore my comment.

Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?

On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.

On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.

I'm a fan of those Iron Priests. I just made two.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
I'm also considering a 140pt 5-man Scout unit, toting a combi-melta Sergeant, meltagun, and two plasma pistols. Infiltrating in the right place and then popping out for a good melta shot might be decent alongside a drop strike.

I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?

On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.

On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.

Problem with 3-man TWC units is that you only need to kill two from each squad to make them useless. Sure, 1 TWC might do some light damage, but it can be easily tarpited and forgotten about. I much prefer playing 5/6-man TWC, accompanied by a Rune Priest or two and a 2+ tanking Lord/Battle-leader. That unit will use 2+/3++, LOS and Cyberwolves to mitigate any and all casualties to the actual TWC. Depends on the list, but in the case of TWC, I'd rather take the max squad approach. You can still threaten 3 or even 4 units with that squad, since every part of it is self-sufficient.

With three more though he can make the squads 5 and 4.

Araenion wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?

On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.

On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.

Problem with 3-man TWC units is that you only need to kill two from each squad to make them useless. Sure, 1 TWC might do some light damage, but it can be easily tarpited and forgotten about. I much prefer playing 5/6-man TWC, accompanied by a Rune Priest or two and a 2+ tanking Lord/Battle-leader. That unit will use 2+/3++, LOS and Cyberwolves to mitigate any and all casualties to the actual TWC. Depends on the list, but in the case of TWC, I'd rather take the max squad approach. You can still threaten 3 or even 4 units with that squad, since every part of it is self-sufficient.

pretre wrote:With three more though he can make the squads 5 and 4.

At only 1500pts though that'd take up a huge chunk of my lists... I mean, sure I could go that route, but I prefer target saturation and consider TWC to be my heavy hitters/ultimate distraction while my 10 objective secured scoring units move around with free reign. Ditching troops choices and tons of bodies in favour of a few more TWC doesn't seem like a great trade-off at that point level... maybe at 1850pts though.

 Araenion wrote:

 Fenris Frost wrote:
I'm also considering a 140pt 5-man Scout unit, toting a combi-melta Sergeant, meltagun, and two plasma pistols. Infiltrating in the right place and then popping out for a good melta shot might be decent alongside a drop strike.

I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.

Only one squad member has to have infiltrate, scout, and move through cover in order for the whole squad to benefit. That gives me an idea. Add an uber character to the squad and he can get close to the enemy.

That's...not how it works. Does it? I'm still a bit weak on 7th edition rules changes.

Andilus Greatsword, I didn't realise it was 1500 points, my bad. That changes things, since the level of firepower aimed at you won't be as harsh at that point level.

 Araenion wrote:
Andilus Greatsword, I didn't realise it was 1500 points, my bad. That changes things, since the level of firepower aimed at you won't be as harsh at that point level.

No problem, I should have mentioned that.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?

I would highly suggest magnetizing 3 or 4 of your TWC at the waist. It will save you some money and allow you to field a few of them as whatever you want. I recently bumped up to 10 (3 boxes and Herald) and I think 4 are magnetized. I have 2 Iron priests and a lord that I can easily swap out whenever I want.
I havent every run 10 TWC, but I have been running 2 units of 4 lately and having a good time. Iron priests with cyberwolves can be nice too, for the look out sir, and the little extra oomph when you split off to go deal with something else, like a devastator unit.

I played a 1250 army featured 3 hordes of BC with TDAWG leader. They did pretty well I have to say, especially against 2 bad matchups (Tau and Necrons).

They got units across the board by T2-3 and once they got in they were very hard to shift and did a lot of damage (for the squads that were more or less still at full strength by that point).

The TDAWG really soaks up the fire. I gave them SS/WC and Melta Bombs, all were useful and made them a solid toolbox for 50 points. The trick to using them is being judicious about what hits to make them take and which to pass. For massed AP3 or higher I just tanked them all out one at a time. For low volume AP2 or less I would try to use the Storm Shield. If there was a lot of AP2 I started rolling LoS's and trying to pass those off.

Each BC unit was maxed out and had a PF in there, with Rage the 3 attacks on the charge is worth it for sure.

I think in most of my lists I will try to squeeze one unit of these guys in there, they just manage to be a very big pain in the butt for my opponent.

On a side note, I really want to try this list out:

1500
HQ
Ulrik

Elites
Iron Priest
Twolf

Troops

10x GH
2x Plasma
Rhino
Wolf Standard

10x GH
2x Plasma
Rhino

Fast Attack

3x Twolves
PF
3x Storm Shields

Formation
Arjack's Shield Bros (Arjack + 5x TH/SS TDAWG)
LRC with MM

Keep the Rhinos near-ish to the LRC so that Ulrik can dish out PE for them, then they in turn can keep close enough to give the Shield Bros +1 attack (gives the army a good edge against other deathstars, MC's etc).

Araenion wrote:I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.

@Araenion - Infiltrate rule is "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule" so the WGPL doesn't prevent Infiltrate (or Scout, as it's the same wording).

You just can't attach an IC to the unit (ICs without Infiltrate can't attach to units who have it before deployment...so basically you can attach to them but only if they aren't infiltrating).

I have a silly idea, that, for its points, is most likely a waste, but might be fun.

Naked wolf guard, if run with champs of fenris, would this cause as much damage as 15 blood claws?
They are the exact same cost, and WG will have 1 more attack when charged, and in every round aside from the first.

If my math is right, 10 WS5 WG will have about 33 hits on the first round, where 15 blood claws will only net about 28. These are both against weapon skill 4 opponents, WG will keep their lead in the second round, as they will then have the same amount of attacks as the blood claws. What is more, is that specialist melee weapons will be better all around. No longer are you taking a WS3 powerfist, now its WS5, and will have 3 attacks on the charge (just like a blood claw) and 2 attacks every round after (twice as much as a blood claw)

Then, you get 6 jump pack WG to 10 jump BC, and 7 biker WG to 10 bike BC. I feel like the strategy of taking blood claws for the assault oomph is negated by wolf guard being better at stacking S4 wounds up. The downside is you cant get a legit special weapon, but you can take melta bombs and more special weapons.

I really cant understand why blood claws would be taken outside of someone wanting a lot of bodies.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I have a silly idea, that, for its points, is most likely a waste, but might be fun.

Naked wolf guard, if run with champs of fenris, would this cause as much damage as 15 blood claws?
They are the exact same cost, and WG will have 1 more attack when charged, and in every round aside from the first.

If my math is right, 10 WS5 WG will have about 33 hits on the first round, where 15 blood claws will only net about 28. These are both against weapon skill 4 opponents, WG will keep their lead in the second round, as they will then have the same amount of attacks as the blood claws. What is more, is that specialist melee weapons will be better all around. No longer are you taking a WS3 powerfist, now its WS5, and will have 3 attacks on the charge (just like a blood claw) and 2 attacks every round after (twice as much as a blood claw)

Then, you get 6 jump pack WG to 10 jump BC, and 7 biker WG to 10 bike BC. I feel like the strategy of taking blood claws for the assault oomph is negated by wolf guard being better at stacking S4 wounds up. The downside is you cant get a legit special weapon, but you can take melta bombs and more special weapons.

I really cant understand why blood claws would be taken outside of someone wanting a lot of bodies.

Not sure what you mean by the exact same cost, BC are 2/3 the cost of WG with the same loadout. Also, WG can't be lead by a TDAWG (unless you give one squad Arjack).

That is exactly the point, you get 15 bodies with T4 3+ armor, lots of attacks and a 2+ tank to lead them for a pretty good price.

Well, the quality of the attacks is higher and return damage is lessened in melee, so those are key points. But a million T4 3+ save bodies is worth its' own merits.

Adding Arjac seems awesome until you realize it'd be almost another 10 Blood Claws.

It'd be pretty effective to have Ulrik with them, though. Re-rolling to hit roll sof 3 in melee is pretty sick.

I guess I'd say if I were going on foot, go for the Blood Claws, but if I were using something to deploy out of (Raider or Stormwolf), I'd go for Wolf Guard.

The thing is with the Blood Claws, once you have them, you don't really need to gear them up beyond the termie leader. Question is, what can you get for those extra points in a Wolf Guard unit? ~50 points can add some useful stuff (like untargetable hidden power weapons). I don't think you'd ever want a frost weapon, though -- much too expensive!

 More Dakka wrote:


Not sure what you mean by the exact same cost, BC are 2/3 the cost of WG with the same loadout. Also, WG can't be lead by a TDAWG (unless you give one squad Arjack).

That is exactly the point, you get 15 bodies with T4 3+ armor, lots of attacks and a 2+ tank to lead them for a pretty good price.

10WG is the exact same cost as 15BC.


@Fenris Frost
A hidden powerfist, or a few power weapons, or even a slew of melta bombs would be pretty nice.

I've been really reconsidering the power fist lately.

Much of the time when I'm building lists I have a spare 100 or so points that wouldn't yield a terribly effective unit -- things like an ML1 Rune Priest or a Whirlwind, etc. But I think in the future I might add some hidden Power Fists with these points to see if I can have a little assault insurance. Losing one Razorback with Blood Claws inside (pretty meh on its' own) might be worth several units having the extra power fist oomph.

I'm considering that Wolf Guard unit with 3 fists.

On the Power Fist, I have never been sorry that I still take them.

Wolf Scouts:
I took some out last night. Basically 10 with 9x Bolt Guns and a Plasma-Gun, Cammo Cloaks and Out Flanked them.
They did not show up till Turn 3, but when they did they mad a major impact even though dice were my Foe that night.
I had a Nurgel 4x AC Havoc Squad that was causing all sorts of Havoc in my ranks chewing quickly though my Long Fangs. I Showed up and Fed them my Plasma Gun and Bolt Guns killing all but 2 quickly. I managed to make all of my Cover Saves vs the Auto-Cannons [Some of the few Saves I made in the game] The Next Turn I decided to Assault them to avoid being shot up by a Terminator Squad Killing one in the Assault. That is were that went wrong. My dice went Cold and I could just not kill the last one off. The last three turns of the game were the 6 of them trying to kill off one guy with a Auto-Cannon.
Looking at it though, with out my cursed dice they would have done real well and should have ended up in control of Set of Ruins overlook a good part of the field and been a thorn in my opponent's side.

Conclusions
If Outflanking they need the WGPL or Wolf Scouts with a Power Weapon of some sort.
Wolf Bolter Scouts can still do a lot of Damage even with only the basics.
Camo Cloaks are always worth it.
I still think they are vary viable, but I need to play a few more games to see if the results were just flukes or not.

So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.

Adding an Iron Priest = 55

For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.

Mavnas wrote:
So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.

Adding an Iron Priest = 55

For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.

Remember Servitors don't take up a slot with an Iron priest around so you can chuck them in for cheap wounds as well if you wanted.

Mavnas wrote:
So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.

Adding an Iron Priest = 55

For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.

Hmm that's an interesting idea. Man, just giving Iron Priests the IC rule has made them so much more viable than before. I wanna get an apoc game in with all of my SW minis sometime just to try some of these ideas out.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
I've been really reconsidering the power fist lately.

Much of the time when I'm building lists I have a spare 100 or so points that wouldn't yield a terribly effective unit -- things like an ML1 Rune Priest or a Whirlwind, etc. But I think in the future I might add some hidden Power Fists with these points to see if I can have a little assault insurance. Losing one Razorback with Blood Claws inside (pretty meh on its' own) might be worth several units having the extra power fist oomph.

I'm considering that Wolf Guard unit with 3 fists.

Let me know how it goes, I might just be giving it a try soon too.

I like the iron priest instead of pack leader idea. I run company of the great wolf pretty often, so elite choices are not hard to come by. The iron priest is AP1 btw, always attack with the servo arm.

I was frequently the victim of Greg Knight Techmarine Grenade caddies in their previous incarnation. Having Independent Iron Priests has been too long in coming if you ask me.

Between mounting them on Thunderwolves and sticking them in squads of Grey Hunters or Blood Claws we have lots of fun ways to deliver that Servo Arm where we want it.

I tried this out a few times and enjoyed it:

Rune Priest
ML2
Armor of Russ
Helm of Durfast
Power Axe (or staff or sword to taste)
Plasma Pistol if you have the points, or a combi-plas works well as well.

Combine with

Iron Priest
Thunderwolf Mount
w/ Cyberwolf

You roll on Biomancy, ideally getting Iron Arm, but Endurance is also a great force multiplier, and nothing besides Hemo is bad really, esp with the Helm.

If you get Iron Arm then the entire unit jumps to T8 with 2+ saves all around, and is overall very killy.

It's kind of a budget mini-deathstar that clocks in a 260-275 points with lots of attacks at different init steps and it's very easy to hide and maneuver.

Has anyone tried a large squad of WG on bikes with a biker rune priest yet? Roll on SW powers and if you get shrouded you have a 2+ jink and can bring all the CC goodies you want. It would be expensive as heck though...

Havent tried any bikers outside of HQ bikers chilling with TWC. A full squad is an investment I don't care to make without playtesting. I plan on seeing if a friend will let me proxy a bit before I invest a bunch.

I do feel that TWC are better than bikers at everything but speed. You could take the same amount of points of WG bilkers in TWC, the same priest and biomancy hoping for endurance (same 1/3 chance as the shrouding power)

No combi weapons stinks, but much heavier CC power.

I tried a stormwolf with Ulrik and a standard bearing 5 man GH squad inside. 3rd turn I came on and was within 6" of over 3 models, they all rapid fired and in CC had 4 attacks in the first round. It was very awesome. When I have more pods, I plan on running a pod heavy army with the same stormwolf. Use the wolves unleashed to ensure it is in on turn 2.

To double check, you still have to declare an enemy with ulrik the slayer, right? He doesn't have PF everything?

Yes, he does.

Yes, his is just Preferred Enemy everything.

The buff is awesome but the way I see it that was ~500 points that wasn't on your board until turn 3, so I don't know how I'd feel about it.

Besides if all those models rapid fired how'd they charge into CC anyway?!

Maybe they didn't charge. All Space Wolves have counter attack

My plan if using that combo would be 5 GH all with CCW, plus a TDAWG leader with Frost sword and maybe combi-melta. If points allow, I'd throw in a Melta gun in the GH team. Throw in Ulrik and this squad can throw ridicolous punch, while also buffing your entire army. It works well even if Ulrik isn't there, and spares you 150 points.