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Thinking about my upcoming Highlander Store Championship tournament, I am thinking I might go Space Wolves w/Imperial Knight instead of SW/GK. Highlander also means needing to take a greater diversity of models, and not just the best options as well, giving me an excuse to bring one of those Dreads in a Pod, which I had been wanting to do.

Highlander store rules indicate that Bjorn, Murderfang, etc... count as Dreads for the "can only take one of any give unit" rule, so I get to bring one.

So my question. This podded Dread is intended to drop front-line, and absorb a lot of turn one shooting while my army advances up field. As such, its semi-suicidal, I know. To that end... which is MORE survivable...

Bjorn, with his front-armor being one higher, and having a 5++, or a Fenrisian Axe/Blizzard Shield Dread having lower armor, but a 3++?

Not sure how to average out the general survivability across that. Thoughts?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, i'd love some feed-back on this prospective list. For those unfamiliar, Highlander expressly forbids more than one of any given unit.

Its a 1500pt tournament. The meta is semi-competitive, with a large and diverse player-base not afraid to take fun lists, or less popular armies. There is, of course, that f'n guy (in this case, that f'n girl, a woman who net-lists the grossest Eldar Wave-Serpent list possible, since troops and dedicated transports are immune to the Highlander rule), who has won the last two events, by picking the only top-tier army which can skirt the rules to transplant into Highlander unscathed.

As such, I want my list pretty TAC friendly. I imagine the troops hanging back-field, holding objectives and manning the Quad Gun, BUT if I want, I could run the troops as MSU, ditch the Aegis Line, and take a Storm-Fang Gunship.

Thoughts?

+++ New Roster (1499pts) +++

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2014) (Imperial Knight Detachment) ++

+ Knights +

Knight Paladin

++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Bjorn the Fell Handed, Last of the Company of Russ [Helfrost Cannon]
····Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

Wolf Lord [Relic: Helm of Durfast, Thunderwolf]
····Runic Armour [Power Sword, Storm Shield]

+ Troops +

Blood Claws
····7x Blood Claw [7x Bolt Pistol, 7x Chainsword]
····Wolf Guard Pack Leader [Chainsword, Storm Shield]

Grey Hunters
····6x Grey Hunter [6x Bolt Pistol, 6x Bolter]
····Wolf Guard Pack Leader [Chainsword, Storm Shield]

+ Fast Attack +

Thunderwolf Cavalry
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Pair of Wolf Claws]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Pair of Wolf Claws]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader [Storm Shield, Wolf Claw]

++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) ++

+ Fortification +

Aegis Defense Line [Gun Emplacement with Quad-gun]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Wolf-Lord actually doesn't have the Helm + Power-Sword, I just needed a points-analog since Battlescribe doesn't have Champions of Fenris Relics for some reason.

He actually has Krackenbone Sword, so AP2, strikes at initiative, master-crafted, etc...

The reason why Battlescribe doesn't allow you to take CoF relics is that you can't take them when using a CAD, you need to use a detachment or formation from CoF to take a relic from that book.

You have a problem with the list when using those relics, if you want to use a Company of the Great Wolf detachment you need to have at least 2 elite units.

I'm not sure what the SS on the WGPL will be good for? Wouldn't it be better to have more bodies in those squads (or plasma/meltaguns)? A 3++ save on a 1 wound T4 model feels kind of pointless to me, or well, at least too expensive for what you get. Anyway, the GH will be behind the ADL in any case, so even less point in having the SS. I would get a plasmagun for that squad instead.

The Stormwolf is an awesome flier, so skipping the ADL and doing MSU GHs/BCs might be a good idea.

Don't take chainsword+stormshield...
take a bolt pistol+stormshield does the same thing but a bolt pistol has the option to shoot

Otherwise, it's very light on bodies, but I guess that's a given when you have a mini-titan in a 1500pt list

I think I'd be tempted to take the shield dread. Plus you'd save 75pts to spend on more GH/BC

If the GH are sitting back in the ADL, maybe drop the champion, take more troops and give them plasmaguns

Thanks guys. A quick test game gave me some of the same insights. I sometimes like the MSU w/Pack Leader using a Storm-Shield, only to help keep 'em alive while out in the open, but yeah... its a mixed bag, and less needed in a list with ADL.

That said, I think I am going with this list. I have been so set on two-source list-building as a thought process that I didn't realize this crazy tournament is unlimited sources.

So i've whipped up (and will be testing)...

1500pts, Space Wolvers/Sisters of Battle/Imperial Knight.

Bjorn and scout-moved Melta Doms, plus Imperial Knight and Exorcist shooting, and rapidly advancing Thunderwolf Cav should create enough turn 1 stress to occupy my opponent and muck up their plans. I figure Bjorn and Melta Doms will take the brunt of turn 1 fire, and Turn 2 will see a lot of my army in the opponents face.

Still light on bodies, but those bodies sole job is hanging out back field and earning modified Maelstrom points. :-p

Thoughts are of course very appreciated.

+++ New Roster (1500pts) +++

++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Bjorn the Fell Handed, Last of the Company of Russ [Helfrost Cannon]
····Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

+ Troops +

Blood Claws
····5x Blood Claw [5x Bolt Pistol, 5x Chainsword]

Grey Hunters
····5x Grey Hunter [5x Bolt Pistol, 5x Bolter]

+ Fast Attack +

Thunderwolf Cavalry
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Pair of Wolf Claws]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Pair of Wolf Claws]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader [Storm Shield, Wolf Claw]

++ Adepta Sororitas: Codex (2013) (Allied Detachment) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Ministorum Priest [Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol]

+ HQ +

Canoness [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4x Battle Sisters]
····Sister Superior [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [4x Dominions, 4x Meltagun]
····Dominion Superior [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]
····Immolator [Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2014) (Imperial Knight Detachment) ++

+ Knights +

Knight Paladin

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: The main problem, at least jumping out at me is the poor options as far as who is my Warlord. Bjorn is going to die, and the Canoness is too soft a target.

I guess, I could make it the Knight, but if I could mine out a few points, I could have the Canoness be replaced with St. Celestine. This would give me a HQ I could hide in a Squad, and have break off and jump for a last turn objective... Plus she has to die on two separate turns to count as a Warlord kill. Problem is... where do those points come from?

Depending on the rules for the tournament, you can make any character in the primary detachment the Warlord, not just HQs. Food for thought, I have actually heard good things about that sort of silly set-up.

Who would even be a good choice for such a move? Ditch Canoness, add four more generic Sisters as bullet-catchers, and make that squad's Sister Superior the Warlord?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Who would even be a good choice for such a move? Ditch Canoness, add four more generic Sisters as bullet-catchers, and make that squad's Sister Superior the Warlord?

Maybe, someone in one of the Sisters threads did exactly that and they said that most people forget that the random Sister Superior is even the Warlord and focus too much on the killy HQs.

Get Celestine, make her your warlord and add her to the TWC blob. Then when she dies, don't get her back up.

 pretre wrote:
Get Celestine, make her your warlord and add her to the TWC blob. Then when she dies, don't get her back up.

Problem was finding the points for her. I'd LOVE to have her, if only because splitting off a jump-infantry for grabbing some late, late game objective or something would be nice in this relatively low model-count list. Thing is... if I want her, I almost must ditch a TWC for her... and that just seems unacceptable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other possibility is pulling out Bjorn, and either replacing him with a Fenrisian Axe/Shield Dread, and thus having points for Celestine, or ditching the Dread altogether, and maybe including a tricked out Wolf Lord w/Relics and a Thunderwolf...

It loses me a threat-vector, and puts a turn one cross-hairs firmly on the Melta Doms, but he's sure to earn back his points, and can likewise snag later objectives if need be.

I'm pretty torn on this one as I don't have a lot of time to test variations of this list.

Actually, looking at that list, I think you should rework it entirely.

The 5 man/girl troop squads with nothing and no ride don't do it for me.

It feels like you just want TWC, so just go  Champions instead.

Take Bjorn or a TWC Lord, 2 Iron Priests and a Bunch of TWC. I would also not take special weapons on all your twc (take two bear, one SS/PF and one SS/WC).

Then take your Celestine, BSS with at least a rhino, Dominions, Exo, etc so on.

I just don't see those 5 man walking squad worth it, even with mod Maelstrom.


I ran a SW/SOB list at a tournament recently and went undefeated. They are a good combo. You need to find a good balance though.

Finally got a chance to try out that White Tide list. Was 2500 points, used 120 Blood Claws with some supporting vindicators, a TWC squad and a Fire Raptor.

Played against two other dudes playing 1250 points of Eldar and unbound Forgeworld Riptide spam respectively.

They kicked the gak out of me. Was fun as hell though, even though the Blood Claws did literally nothing but die.

Did they have drop pods at least?

 pretre wrote:
Actually, looking at that list, I think you should rework it entirely.

The 5 man/girl troop squads with nothing and no ride don't do it for me.

It feels like you just want TWC, so just go  Champions instead.

Take Bjorn or a TWC Lord, 2 Iron Priests and a Bunch of TWC. I would also not take special weapons on all your twc (take two bear, one SS/PF and one SS/WC).

Then take your Celestine, BSS with at least a rhino, Dominions, Exo, etc so on.

I just don't see those 5 man walking squad worth it, even with mod Maelstrom.


I ran a SW/SOB list at a tournament recently and went undefeated. They are a good combo. You need to find a good balance though.

Definitely appreciate the thoughts. Honestly, the MSU Sisters were just about the required troops. I am taking Sisters mainly for Melta Doms and Exorcist. The local meta for this event is VERY heavy on jinking bike tricks, so I figured Melta Doms have a secondary bonus of their Act of Faith turn helping me muck up some of my opponent's plans.

Yep. I ran into bikes.

I ran something like this (ours was 1850, so...)

SOB CAD
Celestine
2 BSS in Repressors with M/HF
3 Doms (2 Repressors with 4 Melta, 1 Immo with 4 Melta)
2 Exos
Rets (5) with 4 HF and Combi

SW Champs
TWLord
2 Iron Priests
TWC Squad
Drop Pod (for Rets)

Jinking bikes didn't stand a chance.

 pretre wrote:
Yep. I ran into bikes.

I ran something like this (ours was 1850, so...)

SOB CAD
Celestine
2 BSS in Repressors with M/HF
3 Doms (2 Repressors with 4 Melta, 1 Immo with 4 Melta)
2 Exos
Rets (5) with 4 HF and Combi

SW Champs
TWLord
2 Iron Priests
TWC Squad
Drop Pod (for Rets)

Jinking bikes didn't stand a chance.

Wish I could follow your lead, as more Melta Doms and Exorcits go a long way towards reminding people how valid Sisters can be. Problem is, that this tournament being Highlander, means one is all I get. So no multiples of anything that isn't a basic troop, or dedicated transport (meaning, as I said, someone inevitably abuses Wave Serpent cheese)

Ugh, I didn't see the highlander restrictions. Nevermind. Yuck.

 pretre wrote:
Ugh, I didn't see the highlander restrictions. Nevermind. Yuck.

So any thoughts on the above list again, in light of that restriction?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Ugh, I didn't see the highlander restrictions. Nevermind. Yuck.

So any thoughts on the above list again, in light of that restriction?

I'll try to take a look tomorrow.

Much appreciated pretre. While I wait on that, a quick general question...

What are people's thoughts on TWC with just a Bolt-Pistol/Chainsword, for filling out TWC units?

See, I was, perhaps under the wrong impression that TWC are such elite killers, that you always run even the average unit-member with a pair of Wolf Claws, for the pure killy, AP3, MEQ-shredding, goodness... but I see a ton of people suggesting that running a bigger, less geared group is actually more practical.

I use a mix of bare TWC and shields. Generally 2 out of my 5 are bare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so stuck with Highlander, I would probably go with just Wolves and knight. I think you're spreading too thin with SOB, SW and Knight.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe something like:

Champions of Fenris:
Harold
Iron Priest on TWC
Ven Dread in Drop Pod
GH with Stormwolf and Wolf Banner
5 TWC with WC/SS, 2x SS/CCW, PF/CCW, BP/CCW
Knight Paladin

You can always trade for some scoring, but it gets all your smashy in there.

And I assume the plan for denying Jink-saves to those lists who will try to abuse it is simply, get stuck in with TWC, and render them moot? Sounds valid. :-)

Basically, get stuck in, so yeah.

For what it is worth, I ran the SW/Sisters/Knight version of the list yesterday, vs my wife's Orks. Just a super-quick mini practice to see how deployment should look, etc...

I wish I had learned more, but amazingly weird luck made the game an outlier as far as usable knowledge goes.

Almost perfect run and charge rolls on the Waaagh, meant my wife charged TWC with a Lucky-Stikk/Klaw Boss and a huge mob of Boyz. The Boss alone ID killed both my Storm Shields, and a Boss Nob with Klaw did the others in...

Likewise, PERFECT rolls of Kustom Mega Kannons, and perfect 6's on pen results, meant my Imperial Knight, even from his shielded front-facing, went down on turn one.

She had no juicy hard-targets for Melta Doms so they did little of note.

Ironically my suicidal distraction Bjorn wiped our a unit of Boyz who he ran off the table, and wiped out a huge unit of Lootas with a Hellfrost blast which scattered right onto a poorly place blob of 'em.

All in all my list just bombed... but I am not sure how much usable info I can draw from the game other than...

1. Dice happens...
2. Warboss with mountains of ablative wounds, and a Lucky Stikk is a bad, bad, bad, man. :-p

Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).

The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...

gruntl wrote:
Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).

The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...

^Very much this. You can use them as a blunt object, but against the right opponent, they will just rip you apart. Use them like a surgical knife and most opponent's won't know what to do expecting a Blunt Object. .

gruntl wrote:
Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).

The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...

That is all very much the truth. I think my mistake from hearing hype, and my local meta crying about how "OP" TWC were, that they were a magical, one-size-fits-all solution to nearly any problem. In finally playing with them I learned much more about the nuance of using them. In ideal match-ups they will just devastate, and in "bad" match-ups they will do a commendable, but certainly not heroic effort.

I know everyone else already knows this, but simply shuffling my war-gear helped, putting Storm Shields on the generic bolt-pistol guys, versus specialists, makes it much easier to LOS and not feel bad about losing them.

And yes, I have since pulled Bjorn, and replaced him with a Wolf Lords/Krackenbone/Relic Armor/Storm Shield, and have found that while I lost a thoroughly distracting Turn 1/2 unit, the Lord just consistently does more work throughout the game. He's been soooo impressive thus far. Plus, in at least one game, having the ability to break him off, and grab a last turn objective, has helped.

Oh, and incidentally, I am not down on Bjorn at all. I actually really like him, and he's certainly my favorite Dread in 40k, and a fun, viable unit. If this tournament didn't have such specific list-building limitations AND such a low point-value, I would have found a place for him.

A few pages back I noticed some folks increasingly experimenting with running a lot of Wolf Guard in various flavors as, essentially, highly flexible, core troops (of a sort).

Has anyone dug further into this and tried more games?

I find myself frequently amazed by how terrific the +1 WS bonus is for the Company of the Great Wolf Detachment, and am tempted to try building lists with even more Wolf Guard and Thunderwolves to reap the benefit.

How are Wolf-Guard with loads of Combi-Meltas, essentially used as glorified Sternguard Vets, in Drop-Pods? Is it worth taking minimum squads, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, full units, maybe with a hidden power-weapon to further do tank-busting beyond a first turn?

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Unfortunately, you're limited to 1 relic per character.

Where does it say that?

Absolutely nowhere. The wording, for example, under a Wolf Lord dictates that he may take items from the Relics of the Fang list. This list dictates that one may be taken per army, and a model may replace one weapon with one of the following. This wording causes some debate in the Space Marine book (if a character has multiple weapons, can he replace multiple weapons?) but this is avoided in the Wolf book, because Helm of Durfast, Wulfenstone, and The Armor of Russ all have a notation stating that they do not replace a weapon.

If this argument can be used here then it can also be used in the SM argument too. SM codex has options for relics that do not replace weapons.

Are combi's for WG squad leaders worth it anymore? I'm modeling 4 power-armoured squad leaders at the moment and I'm leaning towards giving them axes, sword, wolf claw and fist, respectively. It seems like a better spend than a one shot weapon. I'm thinking I'll leave the combi's for my 10x terminators.

My feeling is that 10pts to use a weapon once isn't worth it if you can get the 2nd one in your squad on a normal guy.
There's also the issue of it reducing the # of attacks your WGPL can make in melee... although that's not an issue for if you're using a Specialist Weapon

An example of where I would use it is 10 Blood Claws in a drop pod. They don't meet the requirements for the 2nd special weapon, so I gave my WGPL a combi-flamer to maximise their shooting on the turn the DP lands (before they can charge)