Violent protest erupts in Ferguson, MO over deadly police shooting

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**RivenSkull**

Jihadin wrote:
What were you doing Rivenskull for a LEO to approach you?

Besides I would not be belligerent towards him/her or give "attitude" to an LEO.
I'm biased though because I spent a good portion of my adult life in uniform

Are you referring to when my younger cousins were approached at the playground or the hypothetical approach? Or I could give the details when I was walking to a bus stop and was stopped by a cop driving by.

**Jihadin**

RivenSkull wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
What were you doing Rivenskull for a LEO to approach you?

Besides I would not be belligerent towards him/her or give "attitude" to an LEO.
I'm biased though because I spent a good portion of my adult life in uniform

Are you referring to when my younger cousins were approached at the playground or the hypothetical approach? Or I could give the details when I was walking to a bus stop and was stopped by a cop driving by.

Do you know what a "Green on Blue" is?

**Ensis Ferrae**

RivenSkull wrote:

On a national scale though, there have been far too many instances where cops act in the wrong and because nothing happens to them, it just continues.

Imo, you may be looking at things slightly wrong. Think about this: how many interactions per day do all police and LEOs have with "civilians"??

Yes, there's a lot on the news, especially right now, but the total percentage is probably extremely small for "bad cops doing bad things". Of course, you will probably respond with something along the lines of "that's still too many" and I agree with you. I agree completely that things like the Police Unions, right now, are doing far too much damage to the public, and public perception by fighting to keep the bad cops around.

**RivenSkull**

Jihadin wrote:
RivenSkull wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
What were you doing Rivenskull for a LEO to approach you?

Besides I would not be belligerent towards him/her or give "attitude" to an LEO.
I'm biased though because I spent a good portion of my adult life in uniform

Are you referring to when my younger cousins were approached at the playground or the hypothetical approach? Or I could give the details when I was walking to a bus stop and was stopped by a cop driving by.

Do you know what a "Green on Blue" is?

As in the notion that an allied force mistakenly open fire on a force of a different nation?

**cincydooley**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
RivenSkull wrote:

On a national scale though, there have been far too many instances where cops act in the wrong and because nothing happens to them, it just continues.

Imo, you may be looking at things slightly wrong. Think about this: how many interactions per day do all police and LEOs have with "civilians"??

Yes, there's a lot on the news, especially right now, but the total percentage is probably extremely small for "bad cops doing bad things". Of course, you will probably respond with something along the lines of "that's still too many" and I agree with you. I agree completely that things like the Police Unions, right now, are doing far too much damage to the public, and public perception by fighting to keep the bad cops around.

Bingo.

Statistically, the number of these incidents is INCREDIBLY low in comparison to the total number of interactions.

**RivenSkull**

On the notion of good cop interactions, the cop that stopped at the car accident I was in about 90 minutes ago was very nice an professional.

**daedalus**

RivenSkull wrote:the cop that stopped at the car accident I was in about 90 minutes ago was very nice an professional.

To be fair, so are loaded guns and lawyers when they're not pointed at you.

I've had plenty of good experiences with cops. I've had a couple bad experiences with cops. Regardless, they're human beings, and prone to be as human and fallible as anyone else, and they can most likely kill you and get away with it. This is why you always be polite to them and never invoke them unless absolutely necessary.

**Jihadin**

daedalus wrote:
RivenSkull wrote:the cop that stopped at the car accident I was in about 90 minutes ago was very nice an professional.

To be fair, so are loaded guns and lawyers when they're not pointed at you.

I've had plenty of good experiences with cops. I've had a couple bad experiences with cops. Regardless, they're human beings, and prone to be as human and fallible as anyone else, and they can most likely kill you and get away with it. This is why you always be polite to them and never invoke them unless absolutely necessary.

Way to ruin my attempt (think he got it though) to reach this conclusion you dang

**daedalus**

Jihadin wrote:

Way to ruin my attempt (think he got it though) to reach this conclusion you dang

I'd like to think I was augmenting your point.

**Ensis Ferrae**

RivenSkull wrote:
On the notion of good cop interactions, the cop that stopped at the car accident I was in about 90 minutes ago was very nice an professional.

On the flip side of that, a good friend of mine lives out near Montgomery, Alabama, was in a car wreck with his wife on one of the highways. The driver who hit/drove them off the road took off, and she was injured (turned out to be very minor, but she was in a good deal of pain in places where with his limited, military medical training, said "DO NOT MOVE!!!!"), so he's on the side of the highway, trying to see/flag down an officer (after calling 911, who told him that an ambulance would be on it's way, but due to location it'd be a little while). The first cop he managed to flag down asks if everything is fine, he calmly tells the officer they'd been involved in a hit and run, and he thinks his wife may be injured. The cop says, well, if it's not life threatening, there's not much he can do about it, and drives off.

Now, this cop doesn't just drive off.... He drives about 50 feet up the road, and pulls over. About 10 minutes later, his lights go on, and he's pulled someone over (presumably for speeding)! So, my buddy, being an MP in the NG down that way, calls in again, emphasizing that he's a part of a crime scene as he was involved in a hit and run. The dispatcher says, well, we had an officer just out that way, to which he replies "yes, car number XXXXXX, right?" dispatch says, "yes, that's correct, how did you know?" and he relays to her how this cop just drove off without doing his job.

Long story short, after that phone call, the original officer came back to the scene, to be met by a waiting Chief of Police, who personally drove out to the scene

**Jihadin**

daedalus wrote:
Jihadin wrote:

Way to ruin my attempt (think he got it though) to reach this conclusion you dang

I'd like to think I was augmenting your point.

Bro Fist

**stanman**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
If you don't want to be killed by a cop, don't do things that will get you killed by a cop

A helpful guide for everyone:

**sparkywtf**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
RivenSkull wrote:
On the notion of good cop interactions, the cop that stopped at the car accident I was in about 90 minutes ago was very nice an professional.

The cop says, well, if it's not life threatening, there's not much he can do about it, and drives off.

To be fair, there really isn't much that a first responder can do, even if there is life threatening injuries. From my training of it, the best we got is put a dressing on a bleeding wound.

And I live in a state with some of the best EMS training in the world. Alabama you are lucky if they even know what side of a band aid is down.

**Ensis Ferrae**

sparkywtf wrote:

To be fair, there really isn't much that a first responder can do, even if there is life threatening injuries.

I think that, in this situation, the bigger point is that, due to the fact the incident was a hit and run, the officer should have been there in order to take statements and that "initial investigation" type stuff.

**CptJake**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

To be fair, there really isn't much that a first responder can do, even if there is life threatening injuries.

I think that, in this situation, the bigger point is that, due to the fact the incident was a hit and run, the officer should have been there in order to take statements and that "initial investigation" type stuff.

Absolutely. Additionally, even if treatment was basic, the presence of an authority figure with even a rudimentary understanding of 'treat victim for shock' can make a big difference, especially as opposed to being blown off and the stress that induces in the victim and the others present (which tends to transfer to the victim).

**skyth**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I will say, in general the policemen and women are good individuals. We shouldn't dump the actions on bad cops on the rest.

Just like the majority of people receiving government assitance are hard working people trying to get by...

**sparkywtf**

CptJake wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

To be fair, there really isn't much that a first responder can do, even if there is life threatening injuries.

I think that, in this situation, the bigger point is that, due to the fact the incident was a hit and run, the officer should have been there in order to take statements and that "initial investigation" type stuff.

Absolutely. Additionally, even if treatment was basic, the presence of an authority figure with even a rudimentary understanding of 'treat victim for shock' can make a big difference, especially as opposed to being blown off and the stress that induces in the victim and the others present (which tends to transfer to the victim).

I think you are over estimating the ability of police to treat for shock.

But yes, the bigger point is the fact he didn't do any investigation. Glad he got in trouble for it too.

**Co'tor Shas**

skyth wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
I will say, in general the policemen and women are good individuals. We shouldn't dump the actions on bad cops on the rest.

Just like the majority of people receiving government assitance are hard working people trying to get by...

Exactly, people focus on the bad, and that sometimes leads other people to believe that there is only bad. Yes we should deal with it, but we should also not attack a group of people wrongfully.

**A Town Called Malus**

Co'tor Shas wrote:

Exactly, people focus on the bad, and that sometimes leads other people to believe that there is only bad. Yes we should deal with it, but we should also not attack a group of people wrongfully.

Yeah, that's the job of the police

**Da Boss**

I don't think people are particularly dumping on the individual cops, but the system that lets them get away with murder consequence free.

**whembly**

Da Boss wrote:
I don't think people are particularly dumping on the individual cops, but the system that lets them get away with murder consequence free.

We'll, in the Ferguson's case, it wasn't murder.

**Da Boss**

I friggin' KNEW someone was going to go for the technicality on that post.

I mean, I wrote it, I thought "Man, that's a snappy phrase! Good job Boss. You managed some pith without rambling on like a gobshite!" and then I immediately thought "I should clarify that to "crimes". No, wait. "Questionable acts". That's pretty unassailable"

**whembly**

Da Boss wrote:
I friggin' KNEW someone was going to go for the technicality on that post.

I mean, I wrote it, I thought "Man, that's a snappy phrase! Good job Boss. You managed some pith without rambling on like a gobshite!" and then I immediately thought "I should clarify that to "crimes". No, wait. "Questionable acts". That's pretty unassailable"

Heh... I get it... I seem to get caught on that trap as well.

The thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between resisting arrest by not cooperating, as what Garner was doing in Staten Island, and resisting arrest by violent assaults and threats of harm, as Michael Brown did in Ferguson. Police deserve a very wide berth in responding to the latter, but absolutely less of one with the former imo.

To sum up: Where's the line?

The decision to not indict Officer Wilson for Brown's death is the right call.

However, the decision to not indict Officer Pantaleo for at least involuntary manslaughter for Garner's death is extremely disappointing. Officer Pantaleo would still have his day in court.

**cincydooley**

whembly wrote:

The thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between resisting arrest by not cooperating, as what Garner was doing in Staten Island, and resisting arrest by violent assaults and threats of harm, as Michael Brown did in Ferguson. Police deserve a very wide berth in responding to the latter, but absolutely less of one with the former imo.

To sum up: Where's the line?

The decision to not indict Officer Wilson for Brown's death is the right call.

However, the decision to not indict Officer Pantaleo for at least involuntary manslaughter for Garner's death is extremely disappointing. Officer Pantaleo would still have his day in court.

Couldn't agree with this more.

I was really expecting involuntary manslaughter of the criminally negligent variety because he used a department illegal maneuver to subdue Garner.

**Frazzled**

So as there are a few posters in the area, is there anything still happening there? I think the media's about to move otnot the next big thing, especially as thats just out their door in NY (meanwhile 800,000 people could die here before a NY journalist noticesbut thats another topic).

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
So as there are a few posters in the area, is there anything still happening there? I think the media's about to move otnot the next big thing, especially as thats just out their door in NY (meanwhile 800,000 people could die here before a NY journalist noticesbut thats another topic).

It's spreading... protest-wise.

There was a "die in" at one of the High Schools yesterday.

There was a Blacks on White killing by hammer last week.

But, yeah, the national media died down a bit since folks have read the Grand Jury report as it largely exonerated Officer Wilson.

**Frazzled**

I do a die in at least once a month in the restroom after eating Mexican food.

**Jihadin**

Frazzled wrote:
I do a die in at least once a month in the restroom after eating Mexican food.

Negative
Those are failed attempts of "Lift Off"

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I do a die in at least once a month in the restroom after eating Mexican food.

Negative
Those are failed attempts of "Lift Off"

Reminds me of:

Spoiler:

**whembly**

Well... Gov. Nixon finally answered why he didn't deploy the NG at the first night of the riots:
Missouri Gov. Nixon explains National Guard placement: “Didn’t want to have a Kent State”

ROLLA, MO (KTVI) – Governor Jay Nixon answers why the National Guard left North County unprotected the night of the Grand Jury decision.

On November 24th, businesses burned while National Guard Quick Responders waited for a call that didn’t come until after midnight.

One guardsmen told me, “We were watching, on TV and smart phones, the city burn, while we stood by ready.”
The 700 Guardsmen who got the call were sent to St. Louis City and Clayton.

We’ve been asking the Governor’s office this week whether St. Louis County`s Police Chief requested Guardsmen in North County.

Thursday in Rolla, I asked, “What`s the answer to the yes or no question, did St. Louis County`s Police Chief ask for North County to be protected?”

Governor Nixon responded, “Well certainly we all worked together to make sure we were working on the dual pillars.”

Hayes followed up, “So then why did Rapid Response sit and watch businesses burn?”
Governor: “Well as I said before the plan that night was to make sure we had officers out there.”
Hayes: “But they weren’t out there.”
Governor: “There were 700, yes they were.”
Hayes: “But there were 1500 sitting and waiting. 700 out on the streets and 1500 waiting for a call.”
Governor: “There were 700 assigned that night, others came later as the night went on.”

Not until 1am November 25th- nearly two hours after Fox 2 asked the Governor`s office – “Where`s the guard in North County?”

I asked the Governor, ‘”..like they were in Clayton, why not have them in North County like… it sounds like you`re saying the St. Louis County Police Chief did ask for that presence.”
Governor: “No, what I`m saying is the plan was that the law enforcement officers who have been trained would be out on the front lines. You didn`t want to have a Kent State situation. You certainly didn`t want to have a situation where Guardsmen who had only been there a few hours, who had not been used to the very kinetic atmosphere of people throwing things, screaming things at the very front tip of that spear. That was the plan. I think it has prevented loss of life.”

The “dual pillars” the Governor referenced protecting means safety and speech. He never clearly answered whether Unified Commanders asked for Guardsmen to be in North County and we`re still waiting for an answer about whether Unified Command will answer that question as the command`s spokesman has yet to answer our request.

That's not going to cut it.