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So I was at work today, and got into conversation with a coworker (an elderly lady, who is usually quite a nice, caring person), and we go to talking about hobbies.
As the wargamer that I am, I mentioned the hobby, describing it as like a combination of Airfix and an over-complicated version of chess. She said that she had com across it before, and was shocked that I was into it, saying that it's for "boys who never grow up", and that "women don't have anything to do with it".

This lead me into several lines of thought for the rest of the day:

1) I can understand the initial thought of wargaming being immature (many parts of it is, especially considering much of it breaks down into "pew pew layzorz"), but part of her initial response to me was "that's not a thing for girls". I would like to point out that, at the time, she was the only female in the room. So that confused me for several hours...

2) Her attitude towards the subject was not just one of misunderstanding, but of actual repulsion. I have known several people who act this way towards the idea of wargaming, but not so overtly, and it has always made me wonder "What exactly about wargaming provokes this response"?

3) During the conversation she acknowledged that Airfix was a respectable hobby, and that strategy games like Risk and Chess were also good pastimes, but her response to the idea of combining the two was almost as if she found the idea offensive.

4) I have found this sort of reaction in many people, some of my friends included, and I have never understood why the reaction is nigh-universal to those who are largely detached from "nerdy" hobbies.

So, I suppose the real questions are, "Are these responses common?", and "What causes them?".

Well, first you have to look at the person. You describe her as 'elderly.' Now, I doubt she was as she was at work, making her likely younger than 60, but if she is of an older generation, she will likely be quite ignorant of modern culture, and likely hold views that one would consider old fashioned in many cases.

She will also likely be ignorant of the nuances of the hobby. My dad has always projected a certain disapproving air about me modelling, until recently when I actually showed him a bag of bits before I started building a model, the complete model and then once again once I'd painted and based it. This was clearly somewhat of a revelation to him with regard to the time, effort and skill involved, and while he'll never likely pick up some dice himself, I'm content now he appreciates what I do.

She will also likely be of a generation that still thinks of D+D as 'satanic' (and in her head, it is ALL D+D)

There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.

I haven't had anything like that negative a reaction from, well, anyone, ever, but I can't say I'm surprised others have, fundamentally it just stems from ignorance, like any prejudice.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, first you have to look at the person. You describe her as 'elderly.' Now, I doubt she was as she was at work, making her likely younger than 60, but if she is of an older generation, she will likely be quite ignorant of modern culture, and likely hold views that one would consider old fashioned in many cases.

She will also likely be ignorant of the nuances of the hobby. My dad has always projected a certain disapproving air about me modelling, until recently when I actually showed him a bag of bits before I started building a model, the complete model and then once again once I'd painted and based it. This was clearly somewhat of a revelation to him with regard to the time, effort and skill involved, and while he'll never likely pick up some dice himself, I'm content now he appreciates what I do.

She will also likely be of a generation that still thinks of D+D as 'satanic' (and in her head, it is ALL D+D)

There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.

I haven't had anything like that negative a reaction from, well, anyone, ever, but I can't say I'm surprised others have, fundamentally it just stems from ignorance, like any prejudice.

Yeah, there are a number of factors at work, but I think the underlined is the largest of the pie pieces, and we shouldn't really tapdance around it. Maybe people shouldn't be judgmental about others, but the reality is that being judgmental is one of humanity's favorite pastimes.

There's no question that gaming draws in many different types of people from different walks of life. But when you go to the average game store, convention or tournament and assess the people there, it doesn't really resemble Main Street USA (High Street UK?), does it? The crowd is low-hanging fruit for the judgmental.

I think the D&D thing might be the second-largest piece of the pie. It's certainly one of the first questions you get asked IME. To be fair, there isn't a lot of difference from the standpoint of someone with no experience with specialty games like these. Hell, D&D grew out of wargaming, right?

I've explained wargaming many different ways over the years -- sometimes with longer explanations, sometimes with quick dismissals ("nah, it's more like Risk with toy soldiers that you paint"). And I'm not sure than any of them truly change their initial impression that it's like D&D -- definitely weird and possibly satanic or something.

The large money and time investment with no tangible benefits?... in the grand scheme of things, the more you wargame the less you are going to spend on real life. Unless you make wargames your life, and then you are REALLY screwed with the ladies. (there are exceptions, of course, before all the married FLGS owners come to lynch me)

Basically, the world agrees with her because thats what it is. Walk into any generic FLGS and there are gonna be a majority of overweight, underhygenic, socially awkward guys arguing about what their toys can do. Thats a very hard stigma to overcome when you MUST interact with them in order to play the game, or become a "self loathing" splinter group which is arguably more sad. (and i say self loathing towards the wargaming scene, not the individual)

Just look at the female player percentage in wargaming... 1-5% MAYBE? Most women grow out of their doll phase, and they expect men they interact with to as well; or at least see the grand scheme of things. which is generally: Being nerdy is fine, but investing in wargames are jsut spinning your tires. you dont have to crunch the numbers to see that the truth of the matter is most women are looking for mature qualities in men, and a fixation on non-athletic games with no social prestige is quite the opposite. With board games there is a beginning and end, and the rules are generally designed to be approachable and relatively easy to understand/master... wargames tend to be very detailed/convoluted and require a great deal of absorption and research. Most people that put that much effort into something are trying to further their life goals.

*grabs riot shield and ducks behind wall

First rule of war gaming is never talk about war gaming. Rule two to war gaming refer to rule #1. It's like fight club you never talk about it to others

Yes these responsea are common. Should you care? Not really.

If you ever mention wargaming as one of your hobbies, you should immediately follow it up by asking the other person what their hobbies are.

Then you can take the initiative and make fun of their hobbies first an put them on the conversational defensive.

 Selym wrote:
So I was at work today, and got into conversation with a coworker (an elderly lady, who is usually quite a nice, caring person), and we go to talking about hobbies.
As the wargamer that I am, I mentioned the hobby, describing it as like a combination of Airfix and an over-complicated version of chess. She said that she had com across it before, and was shocked that I was into it, saying that it's for "boys who never grow up", and that "women don't have anything to do with it".

This lead me into several lines of thought for the rest of the day:

1) I can understand the initial thought of wargaming being immature (many parts of it is, especially considering much of it breaks down into "pew pew layzorz"), but part of her initial response to me was "that's not a thing for girls". I would like to point out that, at the time, she was the only female in the room. So that confused me for several hours...

2) Her attitude towards the subject was not just one of misunderstanding, but of actual repulsion. I have known several people who act this way towards the idea of wargaming, but not so overtly, and it has always made me wonder "What exactly about wargaming provokes this response"?

3) During the conversation she acknowledged that Airfix was a respectable hobby, and that strategy games like Risk and Chess were also good pastimes, but her response to the idea of combining the two was almost as if she found the idea offensive.

4) I have found this sort of reaction in many people, some of my friends included, and I have never understood why the reaction is nigh-universal to those who are largely detached from "nerdy" hobbies.

So, I suppose the real questions are, "Are these responses common?", and "What causes them?".

No. That response from her is outdated, and probably more form her own opinion then general public at large.

People don't mind hearing about this as a hobby, and it draws quite a bunch of interest, to the point that people ask- how do I get into that hobby, and where do you get those guys/ games from?

Problem comes with the sticker shock when someone looks at how much the figures cost. THEN the ire and smart comments kick in.

Some observations of an older nerdy gamer.

People look at non-traditional tabletop gaming (anything not Napoleonics) as just a version of playing with toy plastic soldiers.
Which is akin to: boys with their toys = manchild = Peter Pan Syndrome.
I have met some women who are also attracted to some spectacles of strategy and competition who like these games as well, if they did not exist you would not have any in the military or any form of martial art. Women can take their violence seriously.

If you talk about train sets everyone seems to warm up to it and see nothing wrong with that.
But for the terrain and general assembly it is the same skill set to get it to a "playable' state.

Boardgames are OK since they are "normal" diversions and everyone has one of some kind.

I have found it an odd observation that if you explain to them you have a 100+ page rulebook for playing, they give you a blank (or confused) stare and say "but you are playing toy soldiers right?".
Like we go into the realm of make believe and go "pew-pew" no thinking required.
Hard to explain to them you expend more thought in your hobby playing a game than they do all day.

There is one way to get past rule #1 of not discussing the hobby, you then talk about, reading (lots), assembly, painting techniques, airbrushing, drills and polystyrene, hot wire cutters and glue guns.
Unintentionally I can hold my own with the most rabid scrap booker, car/bike painter, artist, collector, martial artist and business person with knowledge of game theory.
It is a multidiscipline hobby that always keeps you thinking and researching.

I feel obligated to prove those types wrong and am less hesitant to describe this hobby in a way they can understand and not be ostracized because of it.

We are also a proud bunch and always willing to show off our hard-won skilz

I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.

*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.

The way I usually describe the hobby is:

"It is like building model airplanes, except that once you build them, you and your friends fight little wars with them."

That has always seemed to work for me, and I don't normally experience much negativity. Usually what negativity comes my way is mistaken association with teenage MTG players hanging around outside the FLGS smoking.

That takes 10 seconds to sort out. 'Na, those are Magic the Gathering players. We play wargames on Wednesday night.'

Sorry MTG players.

Wargaming will probably always never be socially acceptable which is sad because its such a fantastic thing, its social, fun, and you gain A LOT of useful skills along the way. But, it isn't going out on the town, drinking a lot, indulging in the useless dramas young people get into, just making a general knob of yourself (which to be honest I join in on a lot, cause its a good time! ;D)

Its that stereotypical socially inept fat guy who never leaves his house, that has cheedo stains on the top and bottom of his sweat stained shirt and smells like mothballs... which I have encountered to many times. that people are put off by, and manage to think that's what the majority of wargamers look like. I mean, if your that guy, just friggen clean your self, you actually do all us wargamers a favor by not putting yourself to that stereotype.

OP, if you think that's a close-minded view, you should've asked her her opinion on gay marriage, minorities, and her least favorite political party. Turns out old people don't like a LOT of stuff.

It's a good exercise for all wargamers to grapple with this kind of judgement by others to remind them of two things:

1. You could really take it to heart and feel like a victim, but would that really get you anything? No. You have to learn to ignore other people's opinions of you, because they don't matter.

2. The next time you're quick to judge someone who has completely different interests, think about how un-informed others are who judge you.

Also, see below.

 Poppabear wrote:
Wargaming will probably always never be socially acceptable which is sad because its such a fantastic thing, its social, fun, and you gain A LOT of useful skills along the way. But, it isn't going out on the town, drinking a lot, indulging in the useless dramas young people get into, just making a general knob of yourself (which to be honest I join in on a lot, cause its a good time! ;D)

Its that stereotypical socially inept fat guy who never leaves his house, that has cheedo stains on the top and bottom of his sweat stained shirt and smells like mothballs... which I have encountered to many times. that people are put off by, and manage to think that's what the majority of wargamers look like. I mean, if your that guy, just friggen clean your self, you actually do all us wargamers a favor by not putting yourself to that stereotype.

I'm usually pretty smartly presented, and I'm easy to converse with, thankfully. Though, I've never seen much point in what many people in my school used to call fun, which was getting drunk and then staggering around for several hours making racist comments and damaging property.

Maybe it's culture shock, like Blue and Orange morality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slowthar wrote:
OP, if you think that's a close-minded view, you should've asked her her opinion on gay marriage, minorities, and her least favorite political party. Turns out old people don't like a LOT of stuff.

It's a good exercise for all wargamers to grapple with this kind of judgement by others to remind them of two things:

1. You could really take it to heart and feel like a victim, but would that really get you anything? No. You have to learn to ignore other people's opinions of you, because they don't matter.

2. The next time you're quick to judge someone who has completely different interests, think about how un-informed others are who judge you.

Also, see below.

Eh, I don't so much take offense as get annoyed at instant close-mindedness.

It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.

How do you guys think this compares to views of video gaming, or card gaming? I personally think wargaming is somewhat less socially accepted than video games or card games are, probably because of the whole "toy soldiers" aspect.

No lobby. Video games have a huge lobby nowadays and a huge community behind it. Steam alone did so much and the gaming community often embraces their favorite developers.

Tabletop? No lobby. The biggest tabletop community openly hates and mocks their customers and does not regard the hobby as a hobby.

I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and

 Sigvatr wrote:
The biggest tabletop community openly hates and mocks their customers and does not regard the hobby as a hobby.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but are you referring to GW, or something else?

 chochky wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The biggest tabletop community openly hates and mocks their customers and does not regard the hobby as a hobby.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but are you referring to GW, or something else?

Yarrrrrrr.

I make fun of it myself, calling them my toy soldiers. No one cares.

When you're older its a nonissue. Everyone who's employed has a hobby.

It's surprising how comparable it is to a lot of more accepted hobbies. I have a lot of female and male friends that make their own clothing. The very few times wargames have come up I've compared it easily. You invest in materials and learn skills consolidating them and then afterwards you enjoy the fruits of your labour indefinitely.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.

A lot of table top wargamers are college educated professionals, but that's not as fun of a stereotype. When I have to drop by the FLGS to pick something up I like to go after work while I have my suit on. I figure every little bit helps.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.

I've been to the three closest GW's to me, and they consist of pretty normal looking people, who as far as I can tell don't fit the poorer stereotypes of wargamers. Which is saying something, considering one of them is in stevenage (which is known for being a bad place to grow up).
My school has a Warhamer club, which was run by one of the most respected teachers in the school, and it still got a bunch of hate.

Kiwidru wrote:
The large money and time investment with no tangible benefits?... in the grand scheme of things, the more you wargame the less you are going to spend on real life. Unless you make wargames your life, and then you are REALLY screwed with the ladies. (there are exceptions, of course, before all the married FLGS owners come to lynch me)

Basically, the world agrees with her because thats what it is. Walk into any generic FLGS and there are gonna be a majority of overweight, underhygenic, socially awkward guys arguing about what their toys can do. Thats a very hard stigma to overcome when you MUST interact with them in order to play the game, or become a "self loathing" splinter group which is arguably more sad. (and i say self loathing towards the wargaming scene, not the individual)

Just look at the female player percentage in wargaming... 1-5% MAYBE? Most women grow out of their doll phase, and they expect men they interact with to as well; or at least see the grand scheme of things. which is generally: Being nerdy is fine, but investing in wargames are jsut spinning your tires. you dont have to crunch the numbers to see that the truth of the matter is most women are looking for mature qualities in men, and a fixation on non-athletic games with no social prestige is quite the opposite. With board games there is a beginning and end, and the rules are generally designed to be approachable and relatively easy to understand/master... wargames tend to be very detailed/convoluted and require a great deal of absorption and research. Most people that put that much effort into something are trying to further their life goals.

*grabs riot shield and ducks behind wall

this

its down there at the very bottom with dungeons and dragons. playing video games or even watching wwe wrestling are better hobbies in a woman's eyes.

I've been wargaming since I was 7/8yrs old. My father wasn't bothered at that point as he just thought of it as kids stuff. Now I'm close to 30, my brother and I get mocked for it whenever we bring it up in his presence. There has in fact been a moment in my life (years ago) where, he decided to throw it all out (around 3rd/4th edition I believe). All my Black Templars, brother's Nurgle and Tyranid stuff. Gone. Managed to save some of it. Along with some of the older models dating back to RT days.

My other family members see it as a little sad, but they accept that it's a hobby and that my brother and I enjoy it.

Now I have more models than I care to count and scenery to go with it. :-)

With other people, it generally gets a reasonable reception when I tell them I play tabletop games. Hell, some women I know actually ask for pictures of some of the stuff I've painted. One person in particular started buying me kits for my birthday/xmas when I told her. Which was really nice of them . Got a Razorwing and Doom Scythe

 Random Dude wrote:
I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.

*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.

Full contact warhammer ...... sign me up

Heh.

Good stories and observations.

I think the best "ah-ha!" I got from people with no knowledge of the hobby was I made a full scenic base with Legolas.
My wife really liked the movie and the actor (multiple statements of "he is hot" so I took the high road and made it and gave it to her).
She loved it and brought it to work.
Not long after, I went to their Christmas party and had multiple people ask me "how in the world did you paint that so well and detailed?".
Had a couple people ask if I could paint some things for them and one to teach.
Weird! I am ok in the scheme of things, just shows how little people see of this kind of work.

Friend of my wife likes making her own costumes for Halloween, I started making and painting up props (swords, armor, led glowing bits) with her and she asked how I learned to do all this stuff.
It was all by the sharing of notes like with you guys at Dakka.
It is a hobby with a multitude of skills that easily extend into other things.
I think the gaming and skills gain respect when you can apply them in "real life" and not just narrowly focus on the one thing.
It is like our "jock" gaming friends, other interests do not have to mesh but it sure helps! (plus your health and looks help out our stereotype!)

I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and both played and painted he lit up like a firework and canters away.
But I was left with the initial impression that he viewed his hobby as a dirty little secret, and it was a bit gross and weird.

 Azreal13 wrote:
There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.

Oh I don't know about that. I think I'd find any girl who knows how to handle a paintbrush and handful of dice sexy enough.

Knockagh wrote:
I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and both played and painted he lit up like a firework and canters away.
But I was left with the initial impression that he viewed his hobby as a dirty little secret, and it was a bit gross and weird.

I once did a Graduate Internship with a leading chemical/paint company, and mentioned in passing at the end of the interview that I painted & played miniature wargames as a Hobby (attention to detail, patience etc). A couple weeks later I brought a couple miniatures into the office to show them - they were all quite impressed. And these people were senior scientists and chemists in an industry leading company.

My advice is...carry around your best painted miniature in a pocket at all times. If anyone ever denigrates your hobby, just whip out your miniature and say "Oh yeah? Well can you paint like this?"

My best mate used to absolutely rip it out of me for playing Warhammer and 40k. It was incessant. I like a bit of friendly banter as much as the next guy, but this got to the stage where it was like "yeah ok mate, you think it's sad, you can shut up now".

Then one day we went to Games Workshop. All I wanted to buy as a Guard codex. But his attitude did a complete 180. He was really impressed with how well painted the models were, and the fact that the store was a hobby centre where the guys could get together and play games, not just a shop. And I could not prise him away from the LOTR table when I wanted to leave!

He would never get into the game himself, but the intensity of the mockery plummeted at this point.

I find it odd that wargaming is considered less socially acceptable than other hobbies even though there is a large social element to it that isn't present when playing your Xbox or watching TV. At least my hobby involves going out and interacting with other people in real life.