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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
but Space Hulk appears to be doing well

It does? When it came out it got mostly bad reviews and even fans of 40k and Space Hulk weren't buying it. I think most people who have it just picked it up when it was on sale for only a few dollars. That's better than nothing, but it's not going to be raking in much money like that.

It's picked up a bit now they've given it a good clean up with some patching. There's also a new shinier version of Space Hulk coming out called SH:Ascension. Looks very nice- less like the board game tiles and more creepy derelict ship(s) style

My guess as to why they've rushed the codex updates: they'll put the 40k rules-set up for sale.

I hope so, anyway.

 Skinnereal wrote:
My guess as to why they've rushed the codex updates: they'll put the 40k rules-set up for sale.

I hope so, anyway.

I hadn't really considered that, I don't think it's likely. But the rapid releases could be trying to drum up the revenue of 40k before they sell it, and Kirby is retiring not long before I expect all the codices to be updated.

 TheKbob wrote:
We get bits of hard data here in there. The main distributor of games for Australia posted on Facebook how hot Dystopian Wars 2.0 was that it was outselling 7E Warhammer 40k 6:1 (or was it 7:1?). So that either means very little Warhammer 40k is sold in Australia (shocker, we know this) or Dystopian Wars 2.0 is hot stuff.

A lot of other games are picking up steam. You can see it in major GTs that are all getting a significant chunk of "other games" instead of just being 40k only scenes. We're seeing huge upticks in growth of the smaller companies and we have financial folks with access to market analytics stating that gaming is growing in the double digits while GW games are in the double digits decline. We have seen this corroborated in that annual public report that ranks the "Top 5" war games, as well.

Games like X Wing, Attack Wing, Warmahordes, et al are all taking a significant chunk out of Warhammer 40k funds for many gamers these days.

Dystopian Wars 2.0 was really hot stuff. My flgs was sold out before I could get my hands on it
Still, all those double digit growth rates do not mean much yet. All other miniature wargames are still rather insignificant compared to GW's 40k/WHFB, and I have yet to see any of those other companies opening up retail stores or listing on stock exchances. It may change in the future, but as of now, GW still is a giant compared to other miniature wargames companies. It varies from area to area of course, but where I am, 80-90% of games played is still GW.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Dystopian Wars 2.0 was really hot stuff. My flgs was sold out before I could get my hands on it
Still, all those double digit growth rates do not mean much yet. All other miniature wargames are still rather insignificant compared to GW's 40k/WHFB..

I disagree, the ICV2 report over in News and Rumours shows that the top selling games in the US are 40k, X wing, Star Trek attack wing, Warmachine and Hordes. Fantasy has entirely fallen off the radar and yes, those other games are now very significant.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
..and I have yet to see any of those other companies opening up retail stores or listing on stock exchances.

Both of those are good things imo. The retail store is costing GW something like a hundred million pounds a year to maintain for what appears to be no benefit. As for being listed on the stock market, being run by people who have never played the game is the other thing killing GW, keeping their companies private is exactly what I want to see from other companies.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It may change in the future, but as of now, GW still is a giant compared to other miniature wargames companies. It varies from area to area of course, but where I am, 80-90% of games played is still GW.

According to that ICV2 report the tabletop mini's market in the US is worth about 125 million US, GW only made about 50 million in the US market so they are less than half of that market.

GW is still the #1 tabletop war gaming company. No single company can come close to matching their revenue even in a bad year. However, 10 small but successful companies can eat away at GW's slice of the pie just like 1 large company can. Just because they have a majority of the market share right now doesn't mean they're immune to competition. Hell, 12 years ago that list was probably 4 out of 5 GW games and GW was 80%~ of the table top war gaming scene in America. Fast forward to today and they're less than 50%, and shrinking.

So GW is planing to go all Nokia on players?

Makumba wrote:
So GW is planing to go all Nokia on players?

Thinking that through, is that such a bad thing?

 adamsouza wrote:
2 games that have survived 20-25 years

They are now happily licensing out the IP to FFG and video game developers.

Why waste your own money investing in a game that may fail when someone else will do it and cut you in for a percentage ?

I think it was Voltaire who was asked why the Roman Empire fell, and said that it was because everything falls. The point is that just because 40K/Fantasy has survived this far, does not mean they are guaranteed to survive for much longer.

I would argue that until a few years ago, 40K/Fantasy did not survive alone, they were part of an evolving Games Workshop ecosystem of games and shops with a much wider variety of products and services including skirmish scale games, boardgames, shows, events, tournaments, a popular magazine, games clubs and a thriving veteran community that all contributed to the creation of a supportive environment that helped to sustain the two core games.

All of that has been ground down to the point that many veterans now actively work against GW by criticising them, emphasising the high prices, low value and quality, and the availability of better alternatives.

GW now sell only two games to an audience that clearly has been shrinking for several years, which makes me worry that they have got a major problem with their marketing strategy.

Because of this I am not at all convinced that 40K/Fantasy will survive for very much longer, unless GW achieve a major turnaround.

GW isn't going to survive for very much longer, unless GW achieve a major turnaround. I believe 40K/Fantasy will outlive GW, as other companies will buy the IP if/when GW goes down.

I'm of the mind that GW will re-do the early 6th Ed Codexes once they finish updating the leftovers from 5th. DA and Chaos can be given the GK treatment (new rules, point adjustments, no new models) and frankly, a lot of Chaos players would scoop that gak right up if there was even a sliver of a chance the new book would be an improvement. I can't speak for DA players, but I get the sense they feel kinda 'meh' about their book, too.

Then, of course, you could re-do the SM codex (guaranteed super big sales!) along the same lines... since the models are all current (ish) you could crank out a book and make a profit with minimal investment. Oh, be sure to remove all of the special characters that are only available in Failcast and only make plastic versions of the Ultramarine characters, too.

Who else has a 6th edition codex? Tyranids? Eldar? Give 'em a quick update (push really hard that this is to bring them in line with the 'new' rules dynamic of 7th ed and is only going to make the armies better... though in the case of 'Nids, there is little that can be done to make them worse). No new models, just all the copypasta you can stand, and be sure to raise the price $10 on each book.

Once all of the 5th and 6th codexes are replaced by 7th ed versions, only then will we see GW possibly release something completely new.

Releasing an all-new army or doing Sisters in plastic is a major undertaking and not at all guaranteed to succeed. GW is going to want to make a large enough profit that if the new project fails they will have a cushion of money to land on. The easiest way to do that is to make money on the cheap and 'updating' the 6th ed codexes is the easiest way to do that. Its guaranteed sales. After all, people can't play 40K without the rules for their army, right?

I know every gaming group is it's own ecosystem, but locally at least, veterans are griping about GW, but they are still playing and updating their armies and tactics for 7th.

The top TCGs and CMGs rock their meta every 6 months and thrive because of it.

As much as some people buck and grind against change, new is good for sales, since it encourages new adopters and rekindles interest in veterans.

New can also be very bad though.

In the situation we are currently in there are a lot of dissatisfied gamers on the fence about leaving or simply with waning interest
If a new core book/codex is released and they don't immediately rush out to buy it then the odds go up they'll never bother buying it and the decision to quit GW will be made without them even realizing as they no longer have the current rules even if the urge to game strikes them.


As well card games changing the meta every 6 months is a lot better than what GW do since it can take people 6 months to get an army together and painted. Its just not the same with cards.

 adamsouza wrote:
I know every gaming group is it's own ecosystem, but locally at least, veterans are griping about GW, but they are still playing and updating their armies and tactics for 7th.

The top TCGs and CMGs rock their meta every 6 months and thrive because of it.

As much as some people buck and grind against change, new is good for sales, since it encourages new adopters and rekindles interest in veterans.

TCGs appeal to people who like that kind of game. Wargamers don't or we would be playing them instead of wargames.

Wargame veterans can switch system whenever we feel like a change. We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

New adopters don't need change. Everything is new to new adopters no matter how old it might be because they have never seen it before.

GW however does not want to make new games. They want to keep changing 40K, with the idea of making players keep on spending for the New.

New has not been good for GW sales in the last few years. They have overdone it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

What wargamers may want, and what's good for the longevity of a game are not always the same.

Supplements / Dataslates
Terrain
Campaign books
Fortifications for xenos and lots of fortification models, that's a slot people can take with little models in it esp outside imperial style.

If new factions are introduced at some point, hopefully we see a Mechanicum army. It's obviously a long shot, especially if we get plastic Sisters, but it's a logical direction. I could also see a new xenos army being released.

I do wonder if GW will turn their attentions to WFB though - Nagash was just released and it's highly likely more new models are on the way in that department.

With only Blood Angels, Necrons, and Dark Eldar left to go, I'd wager 2015 being heavy on Warhammer Fantasy releases.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

What wargamers may want, and what's good for the longevity of a game are not always the same.

Starcraft 1 hasn't been changed for years and is still played heavily to this day, and still has a professional scene. So I disagree that gamers would move on. They'd continue buying other games, but they'd play this one perfect game for a long time to come. Just because the game is "perfected" doesn't mean it couldn't be added to still either.

There are many things they can (and likely will do):

1. Create new armies with new models
2. Update existing armies with new models
3. Continue having Black Library pump out dozens of new books per year
4. Sell more/new terrain
5. Create new supplies, including paint/ink/washes
6. Dataslates/other digital goods
7. Focus on Warhammer Fantasy, completely overhauling every Codex and army (see points 1. and 2. again).

Maybe even have a sale once in a while so people can start new armies?

Miniatures game manufacturers aren't even on the same playing field as video game producers. As awesome as Starcraft is, it's an anonomly.

Play many games of Stargrunt, Vampire the Masquerade, Full Thrust, D&D 2nd edition, Shock Force, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, or Mordheim lately ?

I've got a closet full of awesome games that are all dead beacause they stopped being profitable.

GW isn't Hasbro. They can't repackage the same game over and over, and get people to buy it without making it new.

Heck, even Hasbro can't do it anymore. Have you seen how many versions there are now of classic board games ? I've lost count how many variations of Risk, Uno, monopoly, etc.. there are now.

NEW SELLS !!!

Making Changes Makes it New !!

The New version of 40K has great potential as a jump on point for new players, and a way to draw old players back.

PERFECT 40K has ZERO incentive to lure old players to back. It would be the same game expereince, only it would cost more for everything, so why would they bother ?

NEW 40K drives sales for new adopters, maybe some vets rage quit
PERFECT 40K dies slowly as vet players move on to new games since they have everything they need, and there are few new players

7th made me come back. I got into it when I was young so I made the mistake of buying basically every special character for my army and a bunch of random units that didn't really constitute your typical FOC army. With 7th I was able to get some games in and learn the rules while I built and painted what I needed to have a decent army. If we were still on 5th rules I doubt I would've gotten back into it.

As far as what GW has up their sleeve, there is still plenty of stuff they could make to drive sales. After every bad financial report we hear "what can they do to survive? They released X, Y and Z this half year and are still flat. Now what? Then they go and make some other big kit, LE book or scenery and it sells. They have a TON of supplements they could make that will sell. Exodite eldar, thousand sons, the list goes on.

 adamsouza wrote:
Miniatures game manufacturers aren't even on the same playing field as video game producers. As awesome as Starcraft is, it's an anonomly.

It's only an anomaly because it's basically perfect. Being perfect gives it endurance. Being bad makes games fall by the wayside and get replaced. There's a reason chess is still around - it's perfect at what it does.

Play many games of Stargrunt, Vampire the Masquerade, Full Thrust, D&D 2nd edition, Shock Force, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, or Mordheim lately ?

None of those are perfect. I know people that still play DnD 3rd though!

NEW SELLS !!!

A game with perfect rules can still have new content, there will just be a small period of rebalancing after it.

I came back for 7th edition, the New Orks, New Space Marines, New Astra Militarum, and new Blood Angels

Starcraft still exists beacause they are owned by Blizzard, which has continuous revenue from WOW and the new games they churn out. There is no way they could stay in buissiness on Starcraft Revenue alone.

Chess is still around because not only is it a brilliant game, it's both royalty free and inexpensive to produce. They have chess sets in dollar stores. GW can not sustain itself on Dollar Store revenue.

My gaming group would argue that D&D 3.5 is just this side of perfect. There are moutnains of 3rd party material for that game still available dirt cheap, and it's compatible with Pathfinder, which is still in production.

Incidently, we moved onto playing Pathfinder, which we now consider to be about as perfect as D&D has ever been.

Each edition of 40K is essentially just new content with period of rebalancing following it, known as the next edition.

2nd edition was better than Rogue Trader
3rd Edition was balanced better than 2nd,
4th was better than 3rd
5th was better than 4th
6th was better than 5th with added flyers and fortifications
7th is better than 6th with better internally balanced codexes, uniform Psychic Powers, and more previously EPIC scaled stuff rolled in

I'm going to argue that no game is perfect, since "perfect", as pertaining to gaming, is subjective.

Honestly, I don't feel the quest for perfection is ever the real problem.

When I hear people complain about changing 40K editions it usually comes down to 3 things.
1.) I don't want to spend the money/ how dare they make me spend more money
2.) The new edition breaks my existing power combo, so I have to change my strategy
3.) I'm bored with the game anyway, I don't want to be bothered to learn new rules, time to rage quit.

The Grey Knights Codex is a perfect example of this.
Roughly half the complaints are about the Inquisitors and Assassins being moved to seperate sources, requiring additional investment.
The other half of the complaints basically revolve around weapons stat changes that encourage actually using the other weapon choices. The perception that the new version encourages or forces a change in playstyle is being raged against.

 adamsouza wrote:
When I hear people complain about changing 40K editions it usually comes down to 3 things.
1.) I don't want to spend the money/ how dare they make me spend more money
2.) The new edition breaks my existing power combo, so I have to change my strategy
3.) I'm bored with the game anyway, I don't want to be bothered to learn new rules, time to rage quit.

Sorry mate, that's just bollocks. There are *heaps* of posts here on Dakka about why people complain and none of those are mentioned. Read the Why I left GW and where I went to instead thread if you want to actually know why people leave.

The Grey Knights Codex is a perfect example of this.
Roughly half the complaints are about the Inquisitors and Assassins being moved to seperate sources, requiring additional investment.

It's not the money, it's the reduction in value when the value is supposed to *increase* over time. To be in this hobby you need to have substantial money. It doesn't mean you need to accept a rodgering by having 15 of the 38 units removed from one edition to the next, and then be charged more for the privilege - and then get to buy the removed units separately again for even more.

Starcraft still exists beacause they are owned by Blizzard, which has continuous revenue from WOW and the new games they churn out. There is no way they could stay in buissiness on Starcraft Revenue alone.

What? Starcraft 1 is often played on a non-Blizzard service, Blizzards ridiculous income has nothing to do with it surviving this long.

Chess is still around because not only is it a brilliant game, it's both royalty free and inexpensive to produce. They have chess sets in dollar stores. GW can not sustain itself on Dollar Store revenue.

They could survive - and thrive - selling at a substantially lower price without the millstone that is their retail chain hanging around their neck and the incompetence of their senior management letting great opportunities pass them by while they drive their IP into the ground. Most people don't play Chess because it's cheap. They play because it's excellent at what it does.

People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

Your army based around Nob Bikers/looted wagons/anything else that got nerfed or squatted ? #2 (Change Sux)

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

I'm not GW's biggest fan. They probably have made a crap ton of mistakes. I don't like how much the prices of thier new releases have risen. Their bullying tactics with smaller companies are terrible.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.
Matt Ward hate has become a past time that defies human logic.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We don't need or want games that change frequently and uselessly just to make us spend more money on them. We need games that achieve a peak of perfection and balance so that we can complete our setup for that game and make a new setup for a different game.

Then Wargamers wouldn't buy that game any more, and the game would die.

Which is why GW shouldn't have killed specialist games. I think over the years I've probably spend more at GW on games that weren't 40k or WHFB than I have on those two. A lot of things will kill a single game all on its lonesome. I would argue that the constantly changing rules have only added limited life to 40k and WHFB. Each edition change I see many people leave the game and some people start the game. 40k has always been the domain of teens and early 20's, at least in my area. Most the older players move on to other games. That would indicate that the constant changing of the rules hasn't really helped them, at least anecdotally in my area.

GW better have something good planned for when they finish with 40k, because they look to be in trouble from what I'm seeing if they can't maintain high sales in it.

I think it just means that they will do the same for fantasy over the following 2 years. New edition, now army books and maybe a new starter. Hopefully for 40k it means they will periodically release stormclaw esque sets, with different armies, a healthy discount and a mini rulebook.

I'd imagine they'd just go onto WHFB and do everything to that that they did to 40k and try to suck people in, then going back and doing it all again with 40k, or make specialist games again. Hard to say but I'll stick around to find out.

 adamsouza wrote:
People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

Your army based around Nob Bikers/looted wagons/anything else that got nerfed or squatted ? #2 (Change Sux)

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

I'm not GW's biggest fan. They probably have made a crap ton of mistakes. I don't like how much the prices of thier new releases have risen. Their bullying tactics with smaller companies are terrible.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.
Matt Ward hate has become a past time that defies human logic.

How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.