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 Psienesis wrote:
The regular people of Nocturne are not noted for similar appearances, so it cannot entirely be an environmental effect. There must be some interaction between it and the geneseed/implants, which makes sense as response to environmental factors is what causes evolutionary mutations in living organisms.

And how does that justify a geneseed instability even higher than that of the SW?
Presumably, this mutation occurs only in people recruited from Nocturne, which means that Salamanders successor chapters should be free of it.

 Psienesis wrote:
The regular people of Nocturne are not noted for similar appearances, so it cannot entirely be an environmental effect. There must be some interaction between it and the geneseed/implants, which makes sense as response to environmental factors is what causes evolutionary mutations in living organisms.

That's not a flaw of the gene seed though, that's a result of a combination of Nocturne's environment and Vulkan himself. A gene seed "flaw" is instability like the Space Wolves or lacking full organs or having damaged gene seed organs. Salamanders meanwhile are as pure and stable as the Ultramarines, if not more so if the Black Dragons aren't actually their descendents.

Presumably, this mutation occurs only in people recruited from Nocturne, which means that Salamanders successor chapters should be free of it.

The reverse could be said of the SW geneseed, however. If you're not from Fenris, the geneseed absolutely wrecks you.

Salamanders meanwhile are as pure and stable as the Ultramarines, if not more so if the Black Dragons aren't actually their descendents.

Suppose, in the end, it depends on what you consider "geneseed stability". If you define it as "you don't turn into a frothing, mutated freak and eat your own face with tentacle-fangs" then, yes, it's very stable, but if you define it as "you don't look freaky after it gets implanted in you" then, no, it's not that stable.

You could also define stability as "it makes you look like a freak but at least you won't be alone, because there's, like, a thousand other guys who are freaks exactly like you"... in which case, it is stable in its instability. Or, at the least, predictable.

 Psienesis wrote:

Salamanders meanwhile are as pure and stable as the Ultramarines, if not more so if the Black Dragons aren't actually their descendents.

Suppose, in the end, it depends on what you consider "geneseed stability". If you define it as "you don't turn into a frothing, mutated freak and eat your own face with tentacle-fangs" then, yes, it's very stable, but if you define it as "you don't look freaky after it gets implanted in you" then, no, it's not that stable.

There are no wolves on Fenris.

You could also define stability as "it makes you look like a freak but at least you won't be alone, because there's, like, a thousand other guys who are freaks exactly like you"... in which case, it is stable in its instability. Or, at the least, predictable.

But that's not a flaw of the Gene Seed, it's just how Vulkan looked and was designed. You might as well call the occulobe a flaw.

The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

 Envihon wrote:
It never describes how the Primarchless Legions ever felt about the Codex Astartes

Both Primarchless Legions following the Heresy embraced it wholeheartedly. The Iron Hands bowed to the logic of Guilliman's codex and the Blood Angels were thankful for the guidance it provided in the wake of Sangunius death.

 Envihon wrote:
what about the Salamanders?

Vulkan initially opposed the codex because he felt the remnants of his Legion were to small to split. After discussing the issue with Guilliman, who agreed the Salamanders would not need to split due to their already small size, Vulkan came to support the Codex.
On the issue of successors even Russ came to think it was a good idea, it was his dream that the Wolf Brothers would be the first in a series of successor Chapters, and together with the Space Wolves they all would create a cordon around the Eye of Terror to protect against the Traitor Legions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Animus wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
It never describes how the Primarchless Legions ever felt about the Codex Astartes

Both Primarchless Legions following the Heresy embraced it wholeheartedly. The Iron Hands bowed to the logic of Guilliman's codex and the Blood Angels were thankful for the guidance it provided in the wake of Sangunius death.

The Iron Hands did certainly not embrace the codex wholeheartedly. They still follow their own organisational pattern with their clans that is quite different from the codex.

Clan Raukaan supplement says differently, as much as many of us wish it didn't.

So another question, if the Salamanders coal black skin and red eyes is stable because it doesn't mutate you in the same manner than why is the physical change in appearance to the Raven Guard considered a deviation in the gene-seed? After receiving it they all become pale white and dark coal black hair much in the same manner that the Salamanders become the way they are.

Without taking in to account the other things that are wrong with the Raven Guard gene-seed, why is one considered a mutation but the other not?

 Envihon wrote:
So another question, if the Salamanders coal black skin and red eyes is stable because it doesn't mutate you in the same manner than why is the physical change in appearance to the Raven Guard considered a deviation in the gene-seed? After receiving it they all become pale white and dark coal black hair much in the same manner that the Salamanders become the way they are.

Without taking in to account the other things that are wrong with the Raven Guard gene-seed, why is one considered a mutation but the other not?

If I had to guess it would be because the Raven Guard geneseed problems started when Corax tampered with it, it wasn't always like that. The Raven Guard didn't have those changes during the heresy, while as far as we know all Salamanders ever recruited from Nocturne had the black skin and red eyes.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So another question, if the Salamanders coal black skin and red eyes is stable because it doesn't mutate you in the same manner than why is the physical change in appearance to the Raven Guard considered a deviation in the gene-seed? After receiving it they all become pale white and dark coal black hair much in the same manner that the Salamanders become the way they are.

Without taking in to account the other things that are wrong with the Raven Guard gene-seed, why is one considered a mutation but the other not?

If I had to guess it would be because the Raven Guard geneseed problems started when Corax tampered with it, it wasn't always like that. The Raven Guard didn't have those changes during the heresy, while as far as we know all Salamanders ever recruited from Nocturne had the black skin and red eyes.

The Space Wolves always had the same problems with their gene-seed from day one as well. Even though Corax messed with it, they are still simple changes in the recruits appearance as is the Salamanders. It just seems like a double standard that we have placed. For some reason we look past the Salamanders obvious deviation but damn the Space Wolves and the Raven Guard regardless how they got there or how long they have been there.

Animus wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
what about the Salamanders?

Vulkan initially opposed the codex because he felt the remnants of his Legion were to small to split. After discussing the issue with Guilliman, who agreed the Salamanders would not need to split due to their already small size, Vulkan came to support the Codex.
On the issue of successors even Russ came to think it was a good idea, it was his dream that the Wolf Brothers would be the first in a series of successor Chapters, and together with the Space Wolves they all would create a cordon around the Eye of Terror to protect against the Traitor Legions.

"Welp, the second founding didn't work for us. Better go back to legion strength!"-Russ

Also, a friendly reminder that if the Black Dragons are descended from the Salamanders then rampant mutation could very well be in their gene seed. As I recall, those guys are considered heretics by some of the more puritan elements of the Imperium.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So another question, if the Salamanders coal black skin and red eyes is stable because it doesn't mutate you in the same manner than why is the physical change in appearance to the Raven Guard considered a deviation in the gene-seed? After receiving it they all become pale white and dark coal black hair much in the same manner that the Salamanders become the way they are.

Without taking in to account the other things that are wrong with the Raven Guard gene-seed, why is one considered a mutation but the other not?

If I had to guess it would be because the Raven Guard geneseed problems started when Corax tampered with it, it wasn't always like that. The Raven Guard didn't have those changes during the heresy, while as far as we know all Salamanders ever recruited from Nocturne had the black skin and red eyes.

Actually they did as well. HH Extermination explains that prior to Corax's discovery the Raven Guard would tend to have one of the traits (pale skin, black hair, or black eyes) but rarely all three. But once Corax had joined the legion it became much more common to see all three together.

In addition, not all the Raven Guard's successors share that particular combination. The Death Spectres have white skin and red eyes and the Raptors have a functioning Betcher's Gland.

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

 Psienesis wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

Yeah, the Imperial Fists who seem to have the "purest" of the gene-seeds has lost function of their Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane so clearly that isn't the definition of a pure gene-seed either. There seems to be a lot of exceptions and double standards when it comes to the description of what makes a pure gene-seed and it makes it oddly confusing. How can the Imperial Fists lost those organs but still considered pure but as soon as you combine with lost function with physical appearance changes as that in the Raven Guard, you suddenly get a mutated gene-seed. Why isn't the Imperial Fists considered mutated as well?

 Happygrunt wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
what about the Salamanders?

Vulkan initially opposed the codex because he felt the remnants of his Legion were to small to split. After discussing the issue with Guilliman, who agreed the Salamanders would not need to split due to their already small size, Vulkan came to support the Codex.
On the issue of successors even Russ came to think it was a good idea, it was his dream that the Wolf Brothers would be the first in a series of successor Chapters, and together with the Space Wolves they all would create a cordon around the Eye of Terror to protect against the Traitor Legions.

"Welp, the second founding didn't work for us. Better go back to legion strength!"-Russ

Also, a friendly reminder that if the Black Dragons are descended from the Salamanders then rampant mutation could very well be in their gene seed. As I recall, those guys are considered heretics by some of the more puritan elements of the Imperium.

And I'll counter by pointing to Storm Giants which are apparently completely normal marines besides treating humans much like Salamanders do

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

Yeah, the Imperial Fists who seem to have the "purest" of the gene-seeds has lost function of their Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane so clearly that isn't the definition of a pure gene-seed either. There seems to be a lot of exceptions and double standards when it comes to the description of what makes a pure gene-seed and it makes it oddly confusing. How can the Imperial Fists lost those organs but still considered pure but as soon as you combine with lost function with physical appearance changes as that in the Raven Guard, you suddenly get a mutated gene-seed. Why isn't the Imperial Fists considered mutated as well?

I'd say it's broken rather than mutated.

pm713 wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

Yeah, the Imperial Fists who seem to have the "purest" of the gene-seeds has lost function of their Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane so clearly that isn't the definition of a pure gene-seed either. There seems to be a lot of exceptions and double standards when it comes to the description of what makes a pure gene-seed and it makes it oddly confusing. How can the Imperial Fists lost those organs but still considered pure but as soon as you combine with lost function with physical appearance changes as that in the Raven Guard, you suddenly get a mutated gene-seed. Why isn't the Imperial Fists considered mutated as well?

I'd say it's broken rather than mutated.

But see that is what I mean, there are so many different clarifications and not all apply to every Chapter. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels are the only ones that people can agree on that are "mutated" for the physical and psychological mutations they bring onto a recipient of those gene-seeds. Now, Raven Guard is usually also agreed upon that their gene-seed is mutated as well but then the Salamanders and the Imperial Fists get a pass because they are just odd things that happen when in reality the Raven Guard just happen to have both things with non-working organs and a common appearance change. Just seems inconsistent is all. Why is the Raven Guard persecuted for it but the Imperial Fists lauded and just is "broken". And I love the Imperial Fists!

 Psienesis wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

The Blood Angels do have a different implantation process according to the 5th edition codex. They only implant the progenoid, they then drink from the Red Grail and sleep inside their sarcophagi for about a year while their body transforms into that of an Astartes. The implication being that they really do grow all the other organs right inside their bodies. Sanguinius' blood must act as a catalyst for the progenoid.

Imperial Fist geneseed is broken because not all the implants work. People like the SW, BA and Raven guard are mutated because they have effects that aren't supposed to be there. Which also includes things like the Black Dragons and Salamanders.

pm713 wrote:
Imperial Fist geneseed is broken because not all the implants work. People like the SW, BA and Raven guard are mutated because they have effects that aren't supposed to be there. Which also includes things like the Black Dragons and Salamanders.

But how can a geneseed be mutated and then one of their successors theoretically be 100% fine whilst the Mechanicus goes on to explain how Salamander geneseed is pure and stable and can only theorize that it's some sort of reactionwith the inhabitants of the planet or the air of the very planet that influeces them. So it's basically like saying the geneseed is fine and does nothing dramatic UNLESS it's on this one special planet that they so happen to have picked which is conveniently much alike Vulkan himself.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The occulobe is an implant, not an aspect of the geneseed. The implants are what screw up most frequently with Space Marines, becoming either under or over-active, which leads to all kinds of Chapter traits and general weirdness. While most of them require geneseed to function (or, at least, function properly), they aren't a direct outgrowth of it.

That is to say, you don't suddenly grow a second heart or a third lung because you have geneseed in you, they cut you open and stick that gak in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Magnus only had the one eye, but this was not a trait passed on to his Legion. Sanguinius had a pair of huge, feth-off wings, but the rest of his Legion did not.

Just because the Primarch looked a certain way, or had certain traits, does not mean that such things were carried on in the gene-seed.

Blood Angels do (with some help from Sanguinius' blood)

Not quite. The gene-seed is still required (as I mentioned) to support these new organs, but they don't suddenly spring out, fully formed, from the gene-seed. It is only noted that the BA gene-seed still supports all 19 implants (which does not hold true for all Chapters).

The Blood Angels do have a different implantation process according to the 5th edition codex. They only implant the progenoid, they then drink from the Red Grail and sleep inside their sarcophagi for about a year while their body transforms into that of an Astartes. The implication being that they really do grow all the other organs right inside their bodies. Sanguinius' blood must act as a catalyst for the progenoid.

Then they are simply Special Snowflake Space-Vampires that do things differently than every other Chapter because reasons. Also, because it forces them to live in a coffin for a year, like Space-Vampires.

I wonder if the GW staff has ever seen Lifeforce? I'm sure they have, actually, though the implications are... disturbing.

 StarTrotter wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Imperial Fist geneseed is broken because not all the implants work. People like the SW, BA and Raven guard are mutated because they have effects that aren't supposed to be there. Which also includes things like the Black Dragons and Salamanders.

But how can a geneseed be mutated and then one of their successors theoretically be 100% fine whilst the Mechanicus goes on to explain how Salamander geneseed is pure and stable and can only theorize that it's some sort of reactionwith the inhabitants of the planet or the air of the very planet that influeces them. So it's basically like saying the geneseed is fine and does nothing dramatic UNLESS it's on this one special planet that they so happen to have picked which is conveniently much alike Vulkan himself.

Well I'd say it's a part of the planet that causes the mutation however as I recall the Salamanders have no succesors.

pm713 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Imperial Fist geneseed is broken because not all the implants work. People like the SW, BA and Raven guard are mutated because they have effects that aren't supposed to be there. Which also includes things like the Black Dragons and Salamanders.

But how can a geneseed be mutated and then one of their successors theoretically be 100% fine whilst the Mechanicus goes on to explain how Salamander geneseed is pure and stable and can only theorize that it's some sort of reactionwith the inhabitants of the planet or the air of the very planet that influeces them. So it's basically like saying the geneseed is fine and does nothing dramatic UNLESS it's on this one special planet that they so happen to have picked which is conveniently much alike Vulkan himself.

Well I'd say it's a part of the planet that causes the mutation however as I recall the Salamanders have no succesors.

Not having successors and not having official successors are two very different things. There are two chapters that are rumored to be their successors. Are they? Who knows! Basically it is possible that any number of chapters are successors in geneseed but not vocally claimed to as it is important to note just how many don't know which primarch they technically belong to.

Indeed, there might be dozens of Sallie Successors, but because they don't live on Nocturne, and don't have the red eyes and black skin, they may behave in some totally different manner. They might even be told that they are descended from another Chapter entirely (like the UM or the Fists).

It's also entirely possible they have no succesors.

pm713 wrote:
It's also entirely possible they have no succesors.

Indeed, this is also possible but it seems that, if we are to consider that there are approximately 1000 or so marine chapters, only 9 founding legions that remained faithful, the extremely low chances of using traitorous geneseed (although not impossible, merely uncommon), there's only so much one can do. Toss on about 60% of all chapters being Ultramarine in geneseed and you get a total of about 400 that aren't originated from Ultramarines. Removing Wolf seed for obvious reasons, that leaves about 7 founders to pick from. Add in the fact that at least a dozen known successors despite being one of the smaller armies that got hit and have some of the worst geneseed around, seemingly Salamander geneseed being extremely stable (and the only drawback being an aesthetic point that is theorized to be due to the planet itself), the suspicions of many towards the Blood Angels, IF who are missing a couple of parts, and then just throw in the shifty attitude of the DA. Overall, out of the 400 or so chapters that remain, if even the Raven Guard have at least a couple successors, it's very probably Salamanders do too. That and GW probably wants people to make up their own if they want etc.