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I've been reading through the new Ork Dex and am trying to figure out, what's been nerfed? So far all I can identify is;

cons
- Battlewagons are slightly more expensive
- KFF's only affect the vehicle they're travelling in

neither con nor pro
- Painboys are now a HQ choice, so you can put them with any unit, but you're losing a warboss to gain a fnp...

pros
- The New Mek Guns seem to be decent (good rules for new models = $$$ for GW)
- The new way the Force Org chart works means you can go elites or fast attack heavy


So is it a fair treatment for the beloved Greenskins? Or have they lost some advantages while gaining nothing really new?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601805.page

In general, with the Waaagh! back to its old glory, a bunch of decent relics, pain boyz for more fragile units and point drops and improvements across many units as well a bunch of 7th edition rules changes orks have become a decent mid-tier army again.

Most perceived nerfs are either adjusting the costs of models according to their role in 7th (battlewagons and trukks are a lot harder to kill in 7th than in 5th), making old rules go away (trukks exploding on S4) or GW applying some of their unspoken standards across the codex (limiting the availability of S10, force fields not extending from vehicles).

The only real nerfs I can think of are moving lootaz to heavy support and as Scuzob said on 3++ "the deff rolla is the most nerfed thing since the Tyranid codex".

Can't really speak on the matter with too much gravity, but my Ork friend is very annoyed by the lack of invulnerable saves in close combat. He was VERY lucky with rolling those cybork body saves in the past edition.

Cybork being changed.
Nob Bikers... this one really irks me since they're the same price as before, I guess really it's just that the bikes for them went up and are more expensive than normal bikes in the Ork 'dex...
Ghaz lost an ability or two... and didn't change in points (or last time I looked)
-.-

Shoota Boys, Dakkajets, Killa Kans, Trukks and Battlewagons are the main things that got nerfed.

Bosspoles are significantly worse now, as are cybork bodies, attack squigs, red paint jobs and deffrollas.

Morale in general became more of an issue, especially for large and poorly armoured units.

Other than that, most stuff got a nice boost.

Right, the shoota nerf is pretty significant. Those additional points can add up quick. Thrakka was already borked in 6th due to fleet not doing what it used to do, he didn't really lose much in 7th.

As for the boss pole...
On units above 10, it previously had no function, right now it can reroll results of 1 outside of combat, results of 4-6 inside of combat.
On units at 7 or less it previously provided a 82.64% chance to pass. Right now it provides a 81.48% chance to pass outside of combat and a 89.58% chance to pass in combat.

Basically it got a bit worse outside of combat (allowing you to pass 55.55% of your failed tests) and a lot better while in combat (passing 75% of your failed tests), in exchange for more wounds.

Fearless getting less common is one of those unspoken GW standards. Apparently they finally came to realize that it's pointless to have mechanics revolving around fear, pinning and moral, if everybody simply ignores those.

Fearless getting less common is one of those unspoken GW standards. Apparently they finally came to realize that it's pointless to have mechanics revolving around fear, pinning and moral, if everybody simply ignores those.

Unless they are Imperial Space marines.

Most perceived nerfs are either adjusting the costs of models according to their role in 7th (battlewagons and trukks are a lot harder to kill in 7th than in 5th),

What? Without ramshackle Trukks are relatively easy to glance down along with low HP.

Huh? I keep reading this, how did ramshackle do anything about the survivability of the trukk?

People need to take off the rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. It even made the trukk explode when it was wrecked, in 5th a heavy bolter pen could cause the truck to die on a 4+, even a bolter could permanently stop a trukk on a 5+, meaning "it dies to bolters" was reality, not a figure of speech. Just try stopping a trukk with bolters nowadays, you'll be surprised. In 6th trukks got a little harder to pop, but the FAQ told us to use ramshackle on wrecks anyways, bringing back a 66% chance of taking casualties from being glanced to death.

The only thing ramshackle did, was make explosion cause S3 hits, which is undoubtedly a relic from previous editions. Even if the ramshackle table would have remained unchanged, the explosions would still have cause S4 hits.

I like Trucks better now. Ramshackle helps a little. Grot riggers are a nice add in if you have a few extra points. Boarding planks are worth getting now. Red paint job is a joke now though.

I loved old Ramshackle. New Ramshackle might as well not exist.


New codex + 7th edition, I haven't had a trukk survive until my second turn yet. They are basically an 18 inch move for my MANz, and first blood for my enemy.

I feel that Painboys is definitely a pro, I'm unsure how it's considered neither pro nor con. It's definitely a pro. Putting a 5+ FNP on a 30 Boy mob is stupid. It's awesome. And if you KFF with it, you put a few eggs in a single basket, but you get a highly durable mob that can get things done for you.

Yes, you risk losing a Warboss, but thats why they gave Orks a detachment that gives us 3 HQ choices in it, so we can bring the Warboss and 2 other HQs for support. Also, with the viability of mechanized Ork armies, a Warboss may not even be needed. That gives you 3 HQs, you can throw around a lot of FNP or KFFs.

The big nerfs for me are the Killa Kan point increase (Though Squads of 6 is nice and I think it's a decent trade off. I can field more now, for a little more than before.) Cybork and the tweak to KFF. Granted, the change to KFF makes it inconsequential to me. It may only be on a model to model basis now, but I'd much rather have an invul than a cover save any day of the week. Plus, I have a Morkanaught, so I use him for KFF and a S8 platform to free up my HQ slot. That lets me toss a couple Painboyz around and a Warboss since I still use tons of infantry.

We got cheaper access to Rokkits, with almost every instance of obtaining it becoming free. I believe only Infantry units pay for it now. So Kopters, which got a point decrease ANYWAY now can get TL Rokkits for free on top of that. Same goes for Buggies. Tankbustas got cheaper and overall better, so there you have more S8 to throw around.

Old Ramshackle was kind of nice, since you could get more distance with Kareen. You also had chances to wreck instead of explode. The weaker explosion was nice too. But, I've gotten over this change by now. I still field Trukks. They die just as easy. They did, in their defense, get a 5 point deduction in exchange. Not a huge point drop...but helpful nonetheless.

Deffrollas are cruddy, but I didn't use em much anyway before. (Weird, right?)

Bikers are cheaper, and can be taken in larger squads. Nob Bikers are the same cost which seems to annoy people, but I really don't get why. Nob Biker-stars are not our only option anymore. With cheaper bikers, they are arguably better. You get more of them for less, which offsets the extra wounds, and you're getting more attacks period, especially with the guns. I think Warbiker-Stars might be more common. Tucking a Warboss, KFF Mek and Painboy on Bikes in a 15 strong mob will be hard to deal with when you've got 54 Twin Linked shots coming at your face, and if they charge, you're going to be hard pressed to kill them when they are T5 with FNP.

My issue with new ramshackle is its another chart i need to roll on that odds are wont do jack anyway. I have pass it ONCE in numerous games with 2 MANz missiles. Admittedly that one time i passed it probably saved its butt since that was a melta shot lol but still....why is it a stinkin 6+? i'd rather another 5pts or something off and not have it at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
My issue with new ramshackle is its another chart i need to roll on that odds are wont do jack anyway. I have pass it ONCE in numerous games with 2 MANz missiles. Admittedly that one time i passed it probably saved its butt since that was a melta shot lol but still....why is it a stinkin 6+? i'd rather another 5pts or something off and not have it at all.

Another chart? It's just a roll to reduce pens to glances. No chart involved D:

Same idea its dice thrown that likely wont do anything

Agree, and it's not like the T-Shirt saves on orks either - you are going to save a couple of orks across any game, but trukks will most likely not have any benefit from that 6+. Even if you manage to downgrade the pen, any unit able to pen the trukk might have killed in the same volley anyways.

The same thing is what buggs me most about the Mob rule - not the d6 hits (which is nothing compared to fearless wounds of 5th), but the ton of dice rolled.
Best example would be my friend's pathfinders shooting my MANz, killing one of three. I now take a pinning test, fail it, reroll due to warlord trait, fail again, roll mob rule, reroll due to boss pole, roll hits, roll to-wound, roll random allocation, roll armor. Then, I take a moral test, fail it, reroll due to warlord trait, fail again, roll mob rule, reroll due to boss pole, roll hits, roll to-wound, roll random allocation, roll armor. In total, I rolled 30 dice because five sharpshooters killed a single nob, which then proceeded to have absolutely no effect due to 2+ armor.

It's a hell of a lot worse if you have a big mob and are using by-the-book wound allocation.

Thats why the general consensus is around my group is that i just grab boyz because like Jidmah pointed out it just takes too much time....

The wounds cannot be allocated to the character anyway on a 2-3, and thats what i usually get since most of the time i need to roll on it for my boy blobs theyre under 10 models anyway since my opponents have adapted this "im gonna ignore the boyz unless i can clear the whole unit" mentality...which is kinda annoying tbh lol.

One big thing i forgot to mention that really sucks about mob rule - we are LD7 without a big mek or warboss in the unit, even our Nobz went down to LD7 for some stupid reason (used to be 8 like the mek). Mob Rule specifically says "Morale and Pinning checks" which means ANY other leadership test we cannot use the mob chart on....namely Fear checks. Had a game against a duo DK list and i lost purely because my boys refused to pass that friggen fear test - even the warboss that charged into the mess failed it. That was pissing me off something fierce.

 Jidmah wrote:
Huh? I keep reading this, how did ramshackle do anything about the survivability of the trukk?
The only thing ramshackle did, was make explosion cause S3 hits, which is undoubtedly a relic from previous editions. Even if the ramshackle table would have remained unchanged, the explosions would still have cause S4 hits.

not necessarily the survivability of the trukk, but the utility. i think i'd be safer with a lit stick of dynamite shove up my What I mean by utility is that there was still a much greater possibility of they boyz at least making it to their destination before exploding. let's be real here, every hit against the trukk is pretty much going to be penetrating because they want it to explode into a festoon of green body parts. with the old rules, there was a 1/3 chance of a wreck instead of an explosion. there was even a humor/fate aspect in possibly "kareen" ing into the enemy forces.


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Mob Rule specifically says "Morale and Pinning checks" which means ANY other leadership test we cannot use the mob chart on....namely Fear checks.

hopefully that'll be FAQ'd soon. it would only make sense... come to think of it that's probably why it WON'T get FAQ'd

My main complains are about invul saves and Ghazzy. Really, Ghaz is the worst character LOW out of the last 3 so far. His real cost is around 170-180 pts i guess.

Another thing i don't like is crowded HQ and HS. Painboyz should have actually been like meks if you ask me. An HQ painboss with a nob statline and additional painboyz with boy'z statlines.

Don't know bout lootas but what i know for sure is that flash gitz belong to elites - not heavy.

And burnaboyz, kanz are definitely overpriced.

All in all, the codex is a solid mid-str oneandit's fun to play with or against.

 delta9heir wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Huh? I keep reading this, how did ramshackle do anything about the survivability of the trukk?
The only thing ramshackle did, was make explosion cause S3 hits, which is undoubtedly a relic from previous editions. Even if the ramshackle table would have remained unchanged, the explosions would still have cause S4 hits.

not necessarily the survivability of the trukk, but the utility. i think i'd be safer with a lit stick of dynamite shove up my What I mean by utility is that there was still a much greater possibility of they boyz at least making it to their destination before exploding. let's be real here, every hit against the trukk is pretty much going to be penetrating because they want it to explode into a festoon of green body parts. with the old rules, there was a 1/3 chance of a wreck instead of an explosion. there was even a humor/fate aspect in possibly "kareen" ing into the enemy forces.

It also had a 2/3 chance of exploding when getting wrecked, resulting in a 16% higher chance of exploding in the first place - all assuming a single pen. Multiple pens meant a way higher chance of exploding. Not to mention that statistically Karreen! had a higher chance to work against you, rather than for you. That are those rose-colored nostalgia glasses I'm talking about.

The rule might have been fun, and it's sad to see it go - but, it was not making trukks better at all. So its disappearance is a buff, not a nerf.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Mob Rule specifically says "Morale and Pinning checks" which means ANY other leadership test we cannot use the mob chart on....namely Fear checks.

hopefully that'll be FAQ'd soon. it would only make sense... come to think of it that's probably why it WON'T get FAQ'd

Why should they FAQ something they've done on purpose? GW has gradually been toning down a bunch of things they have given out too freely in the past. Fearless is one of them. What's the point of even having a fear rule if everyone and their dog ignores it?

Deff Rollas more than anything else. They went from take every time to never bother. It is too bad really. Battlewagons as a while suffered a bit in the swap to 7th given the point increases, though killkannons are easier to include being 30 points.

I would only ever even think about the killkannon at 15 points. For 30 points you can get 4 rokkits and a kannon, which will outdo the kill kannon in every aspect.

Shoota boyz are now just worth it rather than insane value.

Nobz got a bit tough to use-clear GW style cash grab to get rid of the big death star unit of nob bikers and beefy nobs to make room for MANz and The Requisite Big Walker Thingy

Battlewagons with Deffrollas are out, Battlewagons with Kilcannons are in-shoot your ordnance and move baby.

KFF is a piece of trash now. Big Mek may as well be renamed "Shokk attack gunner".

Zagstrukk is kind of not worth it, though Stormboyz are usable.

Killa Kans are pretty much only useful in a big ol mob.

RIP Wazdakka and Old Zog.

On the other hand....

Tankbustas Deffbuggies Deffcoptas Big Gunz Painboyz Weirdboyz MANz Flash Gits all became super good tier

And pretty much nothing in the codex is what I'd call unusable besides the Gorka/Morkacrap. It's bad. It's expensive. It's not orky. Screw GW and their cookie cutter releases


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 Jidmah wrote:
I would only ever even think about the killkannon at 15 points. For 30 points you can get 4 rokkits and a kannon, which will outdo the kill kannon in every aspect.

Except that you can only fire 1 at full BS and the rest at snap firing.

And on average with all that you'll get 1-2 str8 hits compared to a str7 large blast with ordnance. You've got a very near guaranteed hull point taken off of a transport with that or a very dandy half dozen wound street sweeper vs infantry.

 Ond Angel wrote:
Cybork being changed.
Nob Bikers... this one really irks me since they're the same price as before, I guess really it's just that the bikes for them went up and are more expensive than normal bikes in the Ork 'dex...
Ghaz lost an ability or two... and didn't change in points (or last time I looked)
-.-

Losing Cyborg body really hurt them, but the thing about Orks is that you don't wanna be sending A Warboss against someone who can actually fight anyway. And the Bikes actually got better in my opinion, and Nob Bikers are still T5 with 2 wounds, and now if the turbo boost they have a 3+ save. That's nasty.

the_scotsman wrote:
Shoota boyz are now just worth it rather than insane value.

I don't know... sometimes I'm spending the 20-40 points on one or two mobs and I usually get that investment back. It's just no longer no-brainer as before, but they are not useless. Of course, if you're still following the boyz before toyz mantra, shootas now fall into the toyz category.

Nobz got a bit tough to use-clear GW style cash grab to get rid of the big death star unit of nob bikers and beefy nobs to make room for MANz and The Requisite Big Walker Thingy

Nob bikers actually have not lost anything besides cybork (which does hurt a little), but gained 3+ cover during the first turn instead. The big "problem" is that everything else is better now.
However, one would think that everything being better than the best unit from the old codex is a good thing

the_scotsman wrote:


KFF is a piece of trash now. Big Mek may as well be renamed "Shokk attack gunner".

And pretty much nothing in the codex is what I'd call unusable besides the Gorka/Morkacrap. It's bad. It's expensive. It's not orky.

KFF is better IMO. My Ork friend conceded turn 1 of a game before because my tau friend markerlit and exploded his battlewagon. I'm glad it's an Invlun now.

Uhh, I know it is a money grab from GW, but the model is cool, definitely looks Orky, and unless you kill it in one go, it pretty much doesn't die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think that the Painboy taking up an HQ slot is good and bad. You can put him with anyone, but I think they should've had something similar to AM, 1-3 per slot, not just one. So, he takes away slots from Big Meks and Warbosses.

I don't have 7th ed ork... How was Ork Boss Snikrot?

 Jidmah wrote:
I would only ever even think about the killkannon at 15 points. For 30 points you can get 4 rokkits and a kannon, which will outdo the kill kannon in every aspect.

That generally amounts to 2 S8 hits if you are lucky. I'll take a large template over that. Anytime you can avoid straight BS shooting with orks your do it.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I would only ever even think about the killkannon at 15 points. For 30 points you can get 4 rokkits and a kannon, which will outdo the kill kannon in every aspect.

That generally amounts to 2 S8 hits if you are lucky. I'll take a large template over that. Anytime you can avoid straight BS shooting with orks your do it.

More like 2 S8 hits on average. Hits that can actually hurt vehicles, cause instant death to T4 models and wound almost all monstrous creatures on a 2+. That large blast is still going to miss 50% of the time due to scattering off, and even when it hits perfectly, you'll get about 5 hits from it, turning into 3 casualties against a unit in cover, assuming no FNP. Against vehicles, monstrous creatures, or units with good non-armor saves (daemons or bikes for example) it's pretty much worthless. Whenever you don't hit at least 4 infantry models with it, the rokkits will outdo it, ignoring the possibility of firing a blast with the kannon. It's simply not good at killing anything that actually gives us trouble, so what's the point of getting it? Spending 30 points on such an unreliable and one-sided gun is a waste of points, ballistic skill or not.

i wouldnt even pay ~180pts for ghazzy. Theres a huge factor nobody notices about him and a warboss in MA.

Warboss in MA with a BP and Cyborks is the closest you can get to Ghazzy's stats, which comes out to 110pts. Huge point difference for 1wound, 1 attack, and 1WS increase (EW too but on a T5 model that usually isnt even needed). But there is one MAJOR factor that makes the MA Boss better and its not the cost - its Da Stikk. MA Boss with Stikk/BP is 130pts and now he has basically guaranteed hits, wounds, and a 2+ rerollable armor. Ghaz cant get this thing.

I just cant believe they nerfed an already "meh" model to uselessness. And especially since its Ghaz. Most people brought him in the last dex because Ghaz and no other reason lol. He lost an attack (adamantium skull basically gave him Rage and EW, he no longer has this rule), lost the ability to declare his Waaagh! at any point in the game so now you are forced to declare it before you move/charge and hope to GOD you make the assault or you just wasted your 2++, and he costs the exact same he did before.

They should have brought him in line with the damn fluff. Relentless, not SNP, MC since hes the size of a dreadnought, regular FNP and a damn Invul, and Fearless since what the gak does Ghaz have to be afraid of? Theres a difference between knowing when to back off and being stupid - ghaz isnt stupid, any time he backs off is because he knows he can get a better strike later. Even if his price jumped to 300+, if he had all that i'd still bring him (and probably would have to jump since MC's ignore the Unwieldy rule, so thats at init powerklaws)