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I don't have the ork codex (opponent did, but couldn't find anything on the digital), and the RB S.H.Walker section didn't mention how passengers would be affected by 12" Movement.

So, anybody know where it might state whether or not Passengers in a Stompa (like Lootas) can shoot at full BS or Snap?

And yes, I know, there isn't much difference between Snap Shooting orks and greenskins giving it their full attention.

Page citations are most helpful. Ya know, in case an opponent just won't swallow, "Some dude on Dakka told me so." I can show 'em.

*My* relevant search in the rules was the normal vehicle/passenger rules, where if having a Fire Point or being Open Topped, passengers are Snap Shooting at 6+ inches/cruising (page 201's Effect on Passengers Firing From a Vehicle chart).

Is there something in the Super-Heavy Walkers (RB p.96) that I am not seeing?

If there's nothing anywhere, do most folks (here's the HIWPI) have 'em Snap Shoot?

Similar to how passengers in a Trukk or Battle Wagon fire I would believe, since the Stompa will follow the rules for passengers within the transport. If the Stompa moves, it would stand to reason the units within are now snap shotting. I'd look over the transport rules to be certain, I don't have my book on hand (currently at work).

Doesn't seem to say in the rulebook. There are obviously rules for passengers shooting at combat speed and cruising speed, but a walker doesn't have these, it can simply move 12". I've not played vs a super heavy walker before, but I would suggest to my opponent that upto 6" the passengers fire as if they had moved and 12" would be snapshots.

ryuken87 wrote:
Doesn't seem to say in the rulebook. There are obviously rules for passengers shooting at combat speed and cruising speed, but a walker doesn't have these, it can simply move 12". I've not played vs a super heavy walker before, but I would suggest to my opponent that upto 6" the passengers fire as if they had moved and 12" would be snapshots.

I may have heard it somewhere, but I could have sworn that any vehicle with passengers in it that moves counts the models inside as having moved as well. It's also reasons like that you can't use Gitfinda in a vehicle, because the passengers still 'moved'. So that would make the Deffguns have to snapshot. Again, I could be wrong, but its definitely how i would play it, as it makes the most sense.

RAW, passengers count as moved when the transport is moving at combat speed and may not fire at all when the transport moves at cruising speed.

A super-heavy walkers obeys the rule for infantry movement, except being able to move 12".

Infantry can never move at combat or cruising speed. For that reason, there are no shooting restrictions on passengers of walkers.

There also is no way to combine a gitfinda with a deffgun.

Melevolence wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
Doesn't seem to say in the rulebook. There are obviously rules for passengers shooting at combat speed and cruising speed, but a walker doesn't have these, it can simply move 12". I've not played vs a super heavy walker before, but I would suggest to my opponent that upto 6" the passengers fire as if they had moved and 12" would be snapshots.

I may have heard it somewhere, but I could have sworn that any vehicle with passengers in it that moves counts the models inside as having moved as well. It's also reasons like that you can't use Gitfinda in a vehicle, because the passengers still 'moved'. So that would make the Deffguns have to snapshot. Again, I could be wrong, but its definitely how i would play it, as it makes the most sense.

Yeah it does, combat speed the passengers count as having moved (so full BS, but heavy weapons etc would have to snap shot) and cruising speed the passengers can only snap shot (so no templates, blasts, etc).

 Jidmah wrote:
RAW, passengers count as moved when the transport is moving at combat speed and may not fire at all when the transport moves at cruising speed.

A super-heavy walkers obeys the rule for infantry movement, except being able to move 12".

Infantry can never move at combat or cruising speed. For that reason, there are no shooting restrictions on passengers of walkers.

There also is no way to combine a gitfinda with a deffgun.

I wasn't implying Deffgun/Gitfinda combo. :p I was referencing the initial thoughts that a Big Mek's/Warbosses with better guns could get BS3 in vehicles despite it moving due to Gitfinda.

 Jidmah wrote:
Infantry can never move at combat or cruising speed. For that reason, there are no shooting restrictions on passengers of walkers.

I disagree with this point.

Walkers move like Infantry. That is, the specific action of moving is performed in the same way as it is for Infantry.

However, this does not mean that Walkers ignore the entire "Vehicles in the Movement Phase" section. It doesn't matter that the Walker performs the action of moving in the same way as for Infantry; they are still Vehicles, and it is still the Movement Phase. Therefore, the rules for the different speed bands still apply - with the more specific exceptions given by Walkers, of course.

Moving like infantry means not moving like vehicles.

So yes, it does mean they ignore the entire "Vehicles in the Movement Phase" section.

I'm with Jidmah on this one.

The stompa is a bit of a unique case, being the only walker with a troop capacity and fire points i know of.

As it moves as a Superheavy Walker if does not use cruisingspeed/combat speed like a normal vehicle.

Therefore the passengers are not affected by those rules.

They would still count as moving, or not, but not moving at cruising speed/combat speed as the Stompa does not do either.

Jidmah is correct is my understanding. Move 12" and embarked infantry men with burnas may shoot or other infantry at full BS.

Deffgunz are a different story. Heavy will have to snap shoot unless you attach a megaboss or megamek to them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Moving like infantry means not moving like vehicles.

True. But it is still a vehicle that is moving in the movement phase.

So yes, it does mean they ignore the entire "Vehicles in the Movement Phase" section.

Where is that stated? Moving like Infantry never contradicts the fact that it is a vehicle in the movement phase, so both rules must apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, just to clarify my position, take a look at the wording of the various movement speeds:

Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary...

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed...

Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed...

If a Stompa moves 12", it is a vehicle that has travelled more than 6" and up to 12", so fits the definition of having moved at Cruising Speed. Nothing about moving like Infantry precludes this definition.

Now, had the wording been like: "A vehicle that is moving at Cruising Speed may move between 6" and 12"...", then I would be more inclined to agree. However, that is not the case.

Obviously, the rest of the rules in that section would not apply, since the Walker rules specifically contradict them. The movement speeds do apply, since the act of moving like Infantry doesn't change the fact that it is a vehicle.

Except that moving like infantry means moving like infantry. So you use all movement rules for infantry instead movement rules for vehicles. "A vehicle that is moving (...)" does not apply because for movement purposes a walker is not a vehicle.

If those movement rules always applied, all walkers, super-heavy or not, could move 12" cruising speed. Since that's obviously not the case, neither does anything else apply.

Your position is clear, and I understand the logic behind it perfectly. It's simply incorrect. Specific moving rules replace the default moving rules 100%. Otherwise fliers would be forced to automatically crash, because they would still be limited to 12" movement. You either follow the rules of default vehicles or you don't. You don't pick all rules that apply and drop the rest - you drop everything.

I know in 5th and 6th edition the reference table in the back for Vehicle Moving and Shooting lists Walkers as being able to move Combat Speed. However, I can't seem to find that table in 7th edition.

While based off of previous edition (and it was similar in 4th edition), this does imply to me that while they move like Infantry, 6" would still be moving at Combat Speed, and 12" (for SH Walkers) would still be moving at Cruising Speed.

Please note that this is not RAW but RAI (Rules as Interpreted).

 Jidmah wrote:
Except that moving like infantry means moving like infantry. So you use all movement rules for infantry instead movement rules for vehicles. "A vehicle that is moving (...)" does not apply because for movement purposes a walker is not a vehicle.

That would be the case if the rule said "Walkers are treated as Infantry when moving." But it does not. Instead, it says that they move like infantry. Only the specific action of moving is done like that of an Infantry model; it never says that the Walker ceases to be a Vehicle during its movement phase.

Furthermore, the section entitled "Vehicles in the Movement Phase" encompasses any kind of action that the vehicle performs in the Movement Phase.

If those movement rules always applied, all walkers, super-heavy or not, could move 12" cruising speed. Since that's obviously not the case, neither does anything else apply.

Not true. The Walker rules specifically state how far they can move. If they did indeed follow all rules for Infantry and ignore all rules for Vehicles like you say, then they would not need to. (Redundancy is not proof of my argument, but it is worth keeping in mind.)

Your position is clear, and I understand the logic behind it perfectly. It's simply incorrect. Specific moving rules replace the default moving rules 100%. Otherwise fliers would be forced to automatically crash, because they would still be limited to 12" movement.

But that's just it - the specific rules are only replacing the physical act of moving. The speed bands are simply triggered by how far the vehicle has moved, and never cares for how the movement occurs.

You either follow the rules of default vehicles or you don't. You don't pick all rules that apply and drop the rest - you drop everything.

No, in a ruleset like 40k you drop the general rule that gets specifically replaced. How you move a Walker has been replaced; how a Walker's movement distance is described is not.

Take the rules for "Shooting with Walkers" for example. It defines how you shoot with Walkers. Does that mean you replace all of the general rules for the Shooting Phase? No; you replace only those that are contradicted by the specific rules. It's an extreme example (after all, the Walkers' shooting rules don't make sense in complete isolation), but you get my point.

Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

If you use this rule to move your walker up to 6" , you are not moving it according to infantry rules and thus breaking the rules.

If you are not using this rule to move your walker, then you are not moving at combat speed.

 Jidmah wrote:
Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

If you use this rule to move your walker up to 6" , ....

You don't use that rule to move anything. That rule just tells you how to determine which speed band the vehicle moved within,

You don't declare 'Combat Speed!' and start banging a drum before moving your vehicle. You just move your vehicle. If it moved up to 6", it moved at Combat Speed.

If that would be the case, there is no permission to move vehicles 12".

That's correct. There is currently no rule that actually states how far regular vehicles can move... just the rules that say what Speed it counts as if they move certain distances.

 insaniak wrote:
That's correct. There is currently no rule that actually states how far regular vehicles can move... just the rules that say what Speed it counts as if they move certain distances.

Could you explain that please? I read your sentence to imply I could move my Land Raider 32 inches if I want.

osirisx69 wrote:
I read your sentence to imply I could move my Land Raider 32 inches if I want.

No, it would actually mean that there is no way to move vehicles at all, since we're not told how far they can move.

We can assume from the Speed chart that 12" is the maximum, but this is never outright stated in the rules. Example 763 as to why GW needs to hire an editor.

 insaniak wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
I read your sentence to imply I could move my Land Raider 32 inches if I want.

No, it would actually mean that there is no way to move vehicles at all, since we're not told how far they can move.

We can assume from the Speed chart that 12" is the maximum, but this is never outright stated in the rules. Example 763 as to why GW needs to hire an editor.

Exactly this.

HIWPI - all vehicle movements during the Movement phase must fit within one of the defined speed bands. Walkers and Heavy vehicles are obviously limited in how far they can move by their specific rules (and Flyers have their own defined speed bands), but that movement still fits the definition of those speed bands.

Implied rules are still rules.

Walkers do not do a vehicle movement during the movement phase, so speed bands don't apply to them.

Exactly like monstrous creatures and gargantuan creatures which are also transports.

 Jidmah wrote:
Implied rules are still rules.

No, they aren't. Implication is far too subjective to be useful as a rule.

Walkers do not do a vehicle movement during the movement phase, so speed bands don't apply to them.

Again, the speed bands have nothing to do with how the vehicle moved... just how far it moved.

Walkers move like infantry, but a walker that moves 6" is still a vehicle that moved 6". It just movd that 6" the same way an Infantry model would have.

So infantry would be moving at combat speed as well, correct?

 Jidmah wrote:
So infantry would be moving at combat speed as well, correct?

Why?

 Jidmah wrote:
So infantry would be moving at combat speed as well, correct?

If they were also vehicles, yes.

The speed band is simply a category you fit into after having move. If you move 12" as a vehicle you have moved in this speed band - cruising.

Is a walker a vehicle, and did it move 12"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So infantry would be moving at combat speed as well, correct?

If they were also vehicles, yes.

The speed band is simply a category you fit into after having move. If you move 12" as a vehicle you have moved in this speed band - cruising.

Point is, a walker never moves as a vehicle.

Point is, that isnt relevant

Is it a vehicle? Yes
Did it move 12"? Yes

Note the total and UTTER lack of regard for "did it move as a vehicle"? That is because the rule makes no such requirement.

So, would you quote the permission where you're allowed to use some vehicle rules for moving walkers?

Walkers move using the movement rules for Infantry.

The rules concerning speeds are movement rules for vehicles, which leads your logic to one of two results:

1) Movement rules for vehicles also apply, enabling walkers to move 12" at cruising speed as well as moving flat-out during shooting.
2) Movement rules for vehicles do not apply, so there are no speed bounds.

If vehicle rules still applied, there would be no point in telling us to move walkers as infantry. For that reason walkers do not use the rules for movement bounds. The complete lack of mention of those bounds in the vehicle shooting rules reinforce this, as the bounds are described as being relevant for shooting.