Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Daemons are well-aware of the Grey Knights, as shown by the Daemon codex where the Changeling brings up that it hopes to finally corrupt a Grey Knight.

Why they don't publicize the Grey Knights to everyone is... well maybe they try but don't succeed? One thing the Imperium's relatively good at is censoring Chaos. Or maybe the daemons simply don't want people to know about the Grey Knights. Kinda insulting to have those guys that never been corrupted around.

Or maybe it's just an oversight/plot hole/sci fi writers have no sense of scale in general. The whole Grey Knights secrecy thing (and Chaos secrecy thing as well, honestly) was always a bit over the top in terms of feasibility.

The Grey Knights secrecy thing seems to be more of a "depending on the Inquisitor/Grey Knight in charge" thing than an absolute rule.

Mind-wiping to hide the existence of Grey Knights or after various damonic incursions may have a purpose- not to deny the existence of daemons or the grey knights, but to make them forget the specifics- arcane wards and rituals the GK perform, words and names that are dangerous to the untrained, specifics about daemons that could open a mind to later corruption or weakness. There's a difference to say seeing a daemon rendering in a book or briefing, and actually facing a perversion of the laws of reality in the flesh. Beyond knowing that there is a chapter of marines who fight chaos, and seeing the arcane markings and sorceries they cast to fight off the daemons.
Just like the difference in looking at a picture of the sun, but staring at it directly will burn your retinas.

That is a good point.

Many of the techniques the GKs use would be dangerous for anyone but a GK to use. Radical Inquisitors fall because they erroneously believe they can harness Chaos against itself but they cannot do so without becoming corrupted. The GKs, however, can do so. Thus its more to prevent people from copying the GKs and falling victim to that power which only a GK can safely wield.

And the Imperium being all Grim-dark and all, the GKs can't take a chance of that happening. Sure, random Guardsmen X wouldn't understand how to reproduce the wards and sorcery they used and Random Marine Y would be unlikely to attempt to reproduce them, but we can't take that miniscule chance. Its a big galaxy, and even if these precautions only stop 1 daemonic incursion it will have been worth it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
-No mention at all is made of the Mary-Sue crap Draigo does while in the warp, only that his "purity" protects him from the daemons there.

You're right, not mentioning any of his failures and describing him instead as so powerful that "no Daemon or god [is] strong enough to defeat him." makes him SO much less mary sue than before.

Because being a tragic story of a man who can perform great feats that ultimately mean absolutely nothing whose survival in the warp is just another impossibility of the warp = mary sue. This version of the story brings to mind the tale of Sisyphus.
Being explicitly stronger than the Chaos Gods (although what he does with that power is vague) = not mary sue.

Apparently.

Also: "Daemon lords circle like sharks eager to feast upon Kaldor Draigo’s soul."
Whereas before, he was so useless in the Warp that only the most insane and bloodthirsty of Khorne's daemons even tried to attack him. He literally did nothing - he was a minor annoyance, not worthy of the time it would take to destroy him. Now *DAEMON LORDS* are circling him, trying to feast on him. He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

Old Draigo fluff was better, because it didn't portray him as a mary sue.

Rihgu wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
-No mention at all is made of the Mary-Sue crap Draigo does while in the warp, only that his "purity" protects him from the daemons there.

You're right, not mentioning any of his failures and describing him instead as so powerful that "no Daemon or god [is] strong enough to defeat him." makes him SO much less mary sue than before.

Because being a tragic story of a man who can perform great feats that ultimately mean absolutely nothing whose survival in the warp is just another impossibility of the warp = mary sue. This version of the story brings to mind the tale of Sisyphus.
Being explicitly stronger than the Chaos Gods (although what he does with that power is vague) = not mary sue.

Apparently.

Also: "Daemon lords circle like sharks eager to feast upon Kaldor Draigo’s soul."
Whereas before, he was so useless in the Warp that only the most insane and bloodthirsty of Khorne's daemons even tried to attack him. He literally did nothing - he was a minor annoyance, not worthy of the time it would take to destroy him. Now *DAEMON LORDS* are circling him, trying to feast on him. He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

Old Draigo fluff was better, because it didn't portray him as a mary sue.

...Ward is that you?

He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

He's the grandmaster of the Grey Knights, OF COURSE HE'S WORTH THE EFFORT

Grey Templar wrote:That is a good point.

Many of the techniques the GKs use would be dangerous for anyone but a GK to use. Radical Inquisitors fall because they erroneously believe they can harness Chaos against itself but they cannot do so without becoming corrupted. The GKs, however, can do so. Thus its more to prevent people from copying the GKs and falling victim to that power which only a GK can safely wield.

And the Imperium being all Grim-dark and all, the GKs can't take a chance of that happening. Sure, random Guardsmen X wouldn't understand how to reproduce the wards and sorcery they used and Random Marine Y would be unlikely to attempt to reproduce them, but we can't take that miniscule chance. Its a big galaxy, and even if these precautions only stop 1 daemonic incursion it will have been worth it.

But the only reason the GK are incorruptible is because of the techniques and rituals they use to ward themselves, so this doesn't really hold water. The only reason they're secret is because it's a hold over from the Heresy era while the Emperor was still trying to push his Imperial Truth.

BrianDavion wrote:

He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

He's the grandmaster of the Grey Knights, OF COURSE HE'S WORTH THE EFFORT

The whole idea of the Grand Master in Abstentia is still pretty stupid though.

Look, mate. I know he's like, the most awesome Grey Knight ever, but you gotta ken, he's not here! These Marines don't need a freakin' hero, they need a commander! So dethrone that goober in the warp-place and crown a new grand master already!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The whole idea of the Grand Master in Abstentia is still pretty stupid though.

Look, mate. I know he's like, the most awesome Grey Knight ever, but you gotta ken, he's not here! These Marines don't need a freakin' hero, they need a commander! So dethrone that goober in the warp-place and crown a new grand master already!

Abbess Sabrina . She might not even be alive, for all we know!

Yea, I personally never felt Draigo was that mary sue-ish for the warp thing (the Mortarion thing, on the other hand...). The fluff back then VERY explicitly stated that everything he did in the warp was meaningless.

Also, technically, nothing's really been retconned about him particularly. Just the details not mentioned, with the wording still leaving open the interpretation that his old fluff is just as valid as ever. Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's gone (I'd point to examples but at this point it'd be less time consuming to point to things that defy this idea. Of which there are none that I can think of. Well, okay, some examples are: Squats, Knights, Pariahs (yes, they show up in a novel Hammer and Anvil post-Newcron codex with a slight addition to explain their new fluff reason for existing),.Doom Rider, etc etc)

In this case, just because demon lords circle him wanting his soul doesn't mean his actions there aren't meaningless. He's a yummy soul and a powerful one. What's not to like to nom om om? A grey knight soul is a big deal to demons (as shown by the changeling's story)

Also, the whole "explicitly stronger than the gods" thing probably just refers to how his soul is pure enough that even the gods can't corrupt him. Of course, I imagine this can be tested if he ever runs into Slaanesh face to face but I doubt he'll do that (and yes, I fervently believe that pure-ish astartes soul that Slaanesh corrupted was NOT Draigo but simply was someone else).

Why doesn't Slaanesh just walk up to Draigo? From what I can tell, that'd be improper. There's a line somewhere (in the Black Crusade RPG maybe? I forget) that says "Of course, the gods don't get involved directly", implying that the gods generally try to take a back seat to matters in general. Maybe doing something directly is simply unbecoming of them. The only time they do something directly in either Fantasy or 40k is when something huge is on the line (Yes, there was one time they actually manifested an avatar of themselves in Fantasy's history apparently, but it was during one of the biggest battles ever). Slaanesh didn't just walk up to that other Astartes either. That Astartes had to prove himself and make his way to Slaanesh.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Abbess Sabrina . She might not even be alive, for all we know!

Once again, the sisters of battle are the fluff poster girls for "Hey, it could be worse."

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:That is a good point.

Many of the techniques the GKs use would be dangerous for anyone but a GK to use. Radical Inquisitors fall because they erroneously believe they can harness Chaos against itself but they cannot do so without becoming corrupted. The GKs, however, can do so. Thus its more to prevent people from copying the GKs and falling victim to that power which only a GK can safely wield.

And the Imperium being all Grim-dark and all, the GKs can't take a chance of that happening. Sure, random Guardsmen X wouldn't understand how to reproduce the wards and sorcery they used and Random Marine Y would be unlikely to attempt to reproduce them, but we can't take that miniscule chance. Its a big galaxy, and even if these precautions only stop 1 daemonic incursion it will have been worth it.

But the only reason the GK are incorruptible is because of the techniques and rituals they use to ward themselves, so this doesn't really hold water. The only reason they're secret is because it's a hold over from the Heresy era while the Emperor was still trying to push his Imperial Truth.

BrianDavion wrote:

He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

He's the grandmaster of the Grey Knights, OF COURSE HE'S WORTH THE EFFORT

The whole idea of the Grand Master in Abstentia is still pretty stupid though.

Look, mate. I know he's like, the most awesome Grey Knight ever, but you gotta ken, he's not here! These Marines don't need a freakin' hero, they need a commander! So dethrone that goober in the warp-place and crown a new grand master already!

I nominate Justicar Alaric for Supreme Grand Master. I mean I can't be the only one thinking that.

The grey knight changes are getting better. I mean it is still pretty grim dark for draigo, but seriously. A space marine chapter doesn't really need a warrior. They need a commander. Not an idiot who fights well.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The whole idea of the Grand Master in Abstentia is still pretty stupid though.

Look, mate. I know he's like, the most awesome Grey Knight ever, but you gotta ken, he's not here! These Marines don't need a freakin' hero, they need a commander! So dethrone that goober in the warp-place and crown a new grand master already!

Abbess Sabrina . She might not even be alive, for all we know!

Her too. >> She needs replacing, 'cause right now, the Ecclesiarchy has two votes on the council of high lords, which is kind of one of the things the Sisterhood exists to stop from happening.

Rihgu wrote:
You're right, not mentioning any of his failures and describing him instead as so powerful that "no Daemon or god [is] strong enough to defeat him." makes him SO much less mary sue than before.

Because being a tragic story of a man who can perform great feats that ultimately mean absolutely nothing whose survival in the warp is just another impossibility of the warp = mary sue. This version of the story brings to mind the tale of Sisyphus.
Being explicitly stronger than the Chaos Gods (although what he does with that power is vague) = not mary sue.

Apparently.

Also: "Daemon lords circle like sharks eager to feast upon Kaldor Draigo’s soul."
Whereas before, he was so useless in the Warp that only the most insane and bloodthirsty of Khorne's daemons even tried to attack him. He literally did nothing - he was a minor annoyance, not worthy of the time it would take to destroy him. Now *DAEMON LORDS* are circling him, trying to feast on him. He's a prize, he's going around doing things in the Warp worthy of daemon lords wanting his soul. He's worth the effort now.

Old Draigo fluff was better, because it didn't portray him as a mary sue.

Well said
Draigo really hasn't been toned down, they even threw out Mortarion's Heart - where the author tried to lessen the deed - in favor of;

Codex Grey Knights 7e wrote:Breaking ranks with his brothers, Draigo fought his way to where Geronitan had fallen, cutting down anything foolish enough to bar his way. Even Mortarion’s personal bodyguard fell before Draigo’s expert sword blows and single-minded determination. Before the Daemon Primarch could raise his terrible scythe the Grey Knight Grand Master struck him to the ground, the righteous fury of the Emperor burning in his eyes. Unable to destroy the Daemon’s essence, Draigo nonetheless carved Geronitan’s name upon Mortarion’s rotting heart before his mortal form dissipated. For this victory Draigo was elevated to the position of Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Morty can't even land a blow.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The whole idea of the Grand Master in Abstentia is still pretty stupid though.

Look, mate. I know he's like, the most awesome Grey Knight ever, but you gotta ken, he's not here! These Marines don't need a freakin' hero, they need a commander! So dethrone that goober in the warp-place and crown a new grand master already!

He's not been gone for very long. He disappeared at some point in 999.M41, so less than a year has gone by until the end of the current timeline, it's entirely possible that the current Grand Masters have not been able to hold a conclave to decide the new Supreme Grandmaster in that time.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
She needs replacing, 'cause right now, the Ecclesiarchy has two votes on the council of high lords, which is kind of one of the things the Sisterhood exists to stop from happening.

I am confused. The Ecclesiarchy can have two votes or more in the council even when the Abbess is here. If anything, no Abbess means one less vote from the Ecclesiarchy.

The remaining three positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders:
[…]
- Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra
- The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra
Emphasis mine.

Indeed, given the dtae of dragio's dissapperance I imagine he'll be replaced, however due to the way warp travel works the Imperium in such areas is proably slow to declare someone dead. considering people can live for centuries in the imperium, even BEFORE you factor in the warp...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
She needs replacing, 'cause right now, the Ecclesiarchy has two votes on the council of high lords, which is kind of one of the things the Sisterhood exists to stop from happening.

I am confused. The Ecclesiarchy can have two votes or more in the council even when the Abbess is here. If anything, no Abbess means one less vote from the Ecclesiarchy.

The remaining three positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders:
[…]
- Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra
- The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra
Emphasis mine.

The Abbess' vote goes to the Ecclesiarchy in her absence, so when she's not there, they have an extra vote.

So GKs are basically the Delta Force of the Emperium?

I wish they had made mention of some of the supposed notables that joined the GKs from the start. I'd love to know if Loken is still alive...is he now Crowe? Is Garro also still alive? Did these guys really join the GKs?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Abbess' vote goes to the Ecclesiarchy in her absence, so when she's not there, they have an extra vote.

Why would the Ecclesiarchy get an extra vote if an OPTIONAL High Lord (the Abbess) is missing? The Abbess' spot on the High Lords isn't guaranteed in the first place and often times there's someone else in that spot like a Custodes or the Head of the Merchant Chartists.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So GKs are basically the Delta Force of the Emperium?

Nah. That'll be the Storm Troopers. The GKs, if we must have them, are like the Avengers of the Imperium.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So GKs are basically the Delta Force of the Emperium?

I wish they had made mention of some of the supposed notables that joined the GKs from the start. I'd love to know if Loken is still alive...is he now Crowe? Is Garro also still alive? Did these guys really join the GKs?

... No.

It's been ten thousand years. Marines, outside the Eye, simply do not live that long.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I wish they had made mention of some of the supposed notables that joined the GKs from the start.

They do talk about the first Grand Masters, though only really Janus again.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I'd love to know if Loken is still alive...is he now Crowe?

Why would Loken be Crowe, a guy who is alive ten thousand years later?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Is Garro also still alive? Did these guys really join the GKs?

I don't think so unless he went and froze himself. Some of them probably did.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So GKs are basically the Delta Force of the Emperium?

I wish they had made mention of some of the supposed notables that joined the GKs from the start. I'd love to know if Loken is still alive...is he now Crowe? Is Garro also still alive? Did these guys really join the GKs?

... No.

It's been ten thousand years. Marines, outside the Eye, simply do not live that long.

Only because they are killed in battle. Its been stated several times that outside of being KIA SM have an indefinite lifespan.

Its theoretically possible that Crowe is Loken. But I think that the new Dex implies that he was the first Supreme GM of the GK.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So GKs are basically the Delta Force of the Emperium?

I wish they had made mention of some of the supposed notables that joined the GKs from the start. I'd love to know if Loken is still alive...is he now Crowe? Is Garro also still alive? Did these guys really join the GKs?

... No.

It's been ten thousand years. Marines, outside the Eye, simply do not live that long.

Except when they do, like Salamander Brother Gravius, or Epimetheus of the Grey Knights (ex of the Dark Angels it seems)

No, it has been states that Marines get old.

Grey Knights retire to recruitment duties once they can't fight any more because of age.

Blood Angels are known for being especially long-lived, with Dante being a thousand years old and still capable of fighting. This is remarked upon as being a unique thing.

The end times are coming... And by the way, that's in Warhammer fantasy Battles, not Warhammer40k!

Modern writing of fluff has totally messed up the interactions between demons and the mortal realm.

The presence of a single demon itself is extremely rare and means that the corruption has already spread to an uncontrollable level in that city/town/area.

The knowledge of demons is supposed to be safe guarded and those that knew were rare and powerful as with such knowledge there is a great potential for corruption. The knowledge of chaos itself is not very wide spread, sure knowledge of esoteric cults may be fairly common but the names and actions would be extremely varied.

Modern fluff has demons popping up every where and but there are no lasting effects. For how "common" demons have become in some modern fluff the whole mind wipe thing should have been dropped or altered to something that is more reasonable.

The punishment for being banished from them ortal realm is that they must remain in the warp for a 1,000 years and a day. No demon would suicidal rush much less rely on skill at arms alone for combat.

Unless of course their opponent used the immense pride and arrogance of the demons to trick them into fighting recklessly or relying solely on one skills.

If anything they should change the Grey Knights to be more like a mix between the Ghostbusters and MIB, They come in take care of the demons, interrogate them if necessary and even imprison them to learn more information so that the corruption and be completely purged. Then they gather everyone who participated and removes the memories of what happened to prevent them from going insane and turning to chaos. You all act like the mind wipe is a bad thing, if you saw a demons much less battle one I thin you'd want to forget the encounter. Hell I'd be begging to have those images purged from my brain.

 tundrafrog1124 wrote:
Hell I'd be begging to have those images purged from my brain.

That'll be with a bolt round then. Only cowards beg.

The only way any of the founding members of the Gks would still be alive is if they were interred in Dreadnoughts. Which just shows the wasted opportunity they had to make a special character.

Though that would be stepping on Bjorn's toes, as the "oldest Space Marine (kinda) in existence".

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way any of the founding members of the Gks would still be alive is if they were interred in Dreadnoughts. Which just shows the wasted opportunity they had to make a special character.

Dreadnoughts are pretty rare in the GK's though.

 Psienesis wrote:
Though that would be stepping on Bjorn's toes, as the "oldest Space Marine (kinda) in existence".

Not really, because GKs, and therefore GK Dreads, don't even exsist, remember