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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mostly playing devils' advocate.

So, the Grey Knights are the Emperor's babies. Just like the Sensei.

Grey Knights are Sensei now. It all makes sense!

Quickjager - nobody knows how to make scones like Mary Berry, does that mean they've got her genes in them?

Alright then so we know the Emperor made the gene-seed; where do you suggest he drew the genetic material in them from.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mostly playing devils' advocate.

So, the Grey Knights are the Emperor's babies. Just like the Sensei.

Grey Knights are Sensei now. It all makes sense!

Quickjager - nobody knows how to make scones like Mary Berry, does that mean they've got her genes in them?

I don't know if that would really make them offspring of the Emperor though, then again all the Primarchs referred to their Legions as sons, especially ones like Dorn and Horus and all of Space Marines acted like their Primarchs were their fathers or at least a father figure.

Quickjager wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mostly playing devils' advocate.

So, the Grey Knights are the Emperor's babies. Just like the Sensei.

Grey Knights are Sensei now. It all makes sense!

Quickjager - nobody knows how to make scones like Mary Berry, does that mean they've got her genes in them?

Alright then so we know the Emperor made the gene-seed; where do you suggest he drew the genetic material in them from.

Himself.

He made the primarchs from his own genes. He just skipped that step and went right to Marines.

Naturally the genes wont be a 100% match to him because of the changes.

 Psienesis wrote:
That depends on how well you wield both a spear and a hand-vac.

That's not a bolter on the end of the spear, but a Dirt Devil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Basically, taken as a whole, this stated background for the Chapter just doesn't work, it's neither internally consistent with the GK specifically or Space Marines in general.

That's largely my feeling as well at this point. I'm not against them having a Geneseed derived from the Emperor, but claims to it being pure when it's undoubtedly been diluted by hundreds of generations and slight genetic carry over because of it (I mean the organs that hold the geneseed grow out of the host's tissue do they not? Because as far as I'm aware they aren't implanted like the other organs). That means there would be some small drift present that increases with every generation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Grey Knights are Sensei now. It all makes sense!

I'm actually kind of okay with this idea.

@Quickjager: The Emperor didn't likely work alone on his Geneseed experiments. He'd already conquered Terra at that point and had people under him. It's possible the process was actually largely automated (I mean he was making LEGIONS on these guys without needing to harvest geneseed from the Marines he made), but the process was then later lost during the Heresy and the fight on Terra. Just a small thought, because the other thought is that the Emperor had to spend a VERY long time making all the geneseed for the Marines after he took over Terra.

Its possible that the GKs have some tech which compensates for the genetic drift and keeps it stable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its possible that the GKs have some tech which compensates for the genetic drift and keeps it stable.

Possible, but it's something we're just guessing at and tossing fan theory at if we accept that idea.

 Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM?

I believe Ahriman is Terran.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM?

I believe Ahriman is Terran.

Abaddon too, and Kharn definately is (he was already there when Angron arrived).

I also seem to recall that Lysander was found on Terra by an IF chaplain who took a pilgrimage there? Lysander was found at the foot of a statue of Dorn and took it as a sign.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM?

I believe Ahriman is Terran.

Abaddon too, and Kharn definately is (he was already there when Angron arrived).

I also seem to recall that Lysander was found on Terra by an IF chaplain who took a pilgrimage there? Lysander was found at the foot of a statue of Dorn and took it as a sign.

Well the Imperial Fists official homeworld is Terra, so it stands to reason they recruit some from there.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM?

I believe Ahriman is Terran.

Abaddon too, and Kharn definately is (he was already there when Angron arrived).

I also seem to recall that Lysander was found on Terra by an IF chaplain who took a pilgrimage there? Lysander was found at the foot of a statue of Dorn and took it as a sign.

Well the Imperial Fists official homeworld is Terra, so it stands to reason they recruit some from there.

yup it's rare for them to recruit from Terra, but they do.

One thing with the Codex I noticed was that they almost completely got rid of any mention of previous characters who didn't have models.

Mordrak is only mentioned as being Grand Master of the 3rd. Nothing about his ghostly companions.

Thawn is also only mentioned once in reference to the time he sacrificed himself fighting a Keeper of Secrets. Nothing about his immortality.


We also have some idea of the age of Crowe. He joined the Purifiers in 444 M41. So he's been a member of the Purifiers for 555 years. Meaning he's really freaking old. Stern is also mentioned in the First Battle of Armageddon, which also puts him of significant age.

These guys are making Dante and Calgar look young.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Mordrak is only mentioned as being Grand Master of the 3rd. Nothing about his ghostly companions.

I heard about that today and it made me a bit sad. I loved the Ghost Knights idea.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We also have some idea of the age of Crowe. He joined the Purifiers in 444 M41. So he's been a member of the Purifiers for 555 years. Meaning he's really freaking old. Stern is also mentioned in the First Battle of Armageddon, which also puts him of significant age.

Surprised they didn't slip another 666 in there with his age. But yeah, that's a bit silly. Guess Crowe should be painted with white hair then.

Unless you gave him a different head his model is wearing his helmet(like a sensible soldier)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless you gave him a different head his model is wearing his helmet(like a sensible soldier)

Huh. So he is. I blame either the fact that GW likes to make a lot of HQ Marine models helmetless or my Space Wolf army I'm working on since I'm not giving very many of them brain buckets.

Draigo actually gives you 2 heads. Helmet or no helmet. So more sensible than most other characters.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Draigo actually gives you 2 heads. Helmet or no helmet. So more sensible than most other characters.

Very true. I have a Seth model and had to convert him up a helmet because I was not in love with his chubby faced look.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One thing with the Codex I noticed was that they almost completely got rid of any mention of previous characters who didn't have models.

Mordrak is only mentioned as being Grand Master of the 3rd. Nothing about his ghostly companions.

Thawn is also only mentioned once in reference to the time he sacrificed himself fighting a Keeper of Secrets. Nothing about his immortality.


We also have some idea of the age of Crowe. He joined the Purifiers in 444 M41. So he's been a member of the Purifiers for 555 years. Meaning he's really freaking old. Stern is also mentioned in the First Battle of Armageddon, which also puts him of significant age.

These guys are making Dante and Calgar look young.

Dante is still much older than any GK we know of. Draigo for example was first mentioned in 799.M41 as a mear battle-brother. Stern is mentioned as a new GK during Armegeddon, as is some other Brother-Captains. Mordrak is noted to be a Justicar at this point.
As you say Crowe joins the Purifiers in the aftermath and at 999M41 he has been one for 555 years. Let's round that to 600 to include his time outside the order and add about 15 years to accomodate for time before and during recruitment. So he's about 615 years by my reckoning.

Then you have guys like Dante who are well over a millenia, Logan Grimnar who has led the Space Wolves for 600 years (not counting his time as a Blood Claw, Grey Hunter, Wolf Guard, Battle Leader and Wolf Lord before becoming Great Wolf).

The earliest engagement Calgar is mentioned in is Battle for Maccrage in 745M41 meaning as of 999M41 he bas been Lord Macragge for 254 years minimum, and probably much longer.

Still, no one holds a candle to Bjorn.

 Envihon wrote:
Still, no one holds a candle to Bjorn.

Well no loyalist Space Marine at least. Beyond that it goes up to debate.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Still, no one holds a candle to Bjorn.

Well no loyalist Space Marine at least. Beyond that it goes up to debate.

Bjorn was pretty young during the Heresy wasn't he? So that would make Ahriman, and Abbadon older than him.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

I believe Ahriman is Terran.

Abaddon too

Abaddon is Cthonian.

Originally the firstborn son of the most mighty of Cthonia’s gang warlords, Ezekyle killed his father in single combat after a disastrous Cthonian coming of age ritual. Though he lived in exile after that point, his massive build and natural ferocity saw him grow to be a legend amongst his people.

 Deadshot wrote:
I also seem to recall that Lysander was found on Terra by an IF chaplain who took a pilgrimage there? Lysander was found at the foot of a statue of Dorn and took it as a sign.

Yes, Lysander was found on Terra, but was a pilgrim, and not actually Terran himself.

 Envihon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Still, no one holds a candle to Bjorn.

Well no loyalist Space Marine at least. Beyond that it goes up to debate.

Bjorn was pretty young during the Heresy wasn't he? So that would make Ahriman, and Abbadon older than him.

and Fabulous Bill, Kharn and Typhus

due to certain, erm relalities, it is difficult to tell Lucius's age.

 Ribon Fox wrote:
I have a French Maid outfit, does that mean I'm a Custode?

Why yes, yes it does!

Remember also that Dante is NOT 1000 years old. He has been Chapter Master for 1000 years. Given how long its takes a SM to get promoted that far, he could be anywhere from 1500 to 2500 years old if not older.

GK gene seed is not corrupting over time,

because its simply better, and wont corrupt over time, thats the whole point of them creating it in the first place... its pretty constant with the fluff as a whole.

cause of the whole "oh... turns out our half our marines fell to chaos, can we make ones that wont?" dealie

But why is it better?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But why is it better?

Its the Emperor's genes. His genes are an anathema to the warp and so it won't corrupt over time.

Well, if Janus is you-know-who then the GK would have access to the primarch project material.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Well, if Janus is you-know-who then the GK would have access to the primarch project material.

even if he wasn't, it'd be a fair theory to suppose they have access to that data. It's quite likely that the emperor tasked Malchador to use the stuff to generate a new, purer gene seed based off the emperor's own DNA

The Emperor didn't task Malcador to do that, he did it himself. Malcador was busy getting recruits and then took them straight to Terra and then to Titan, where the vaults were already filled eith Geneseed. The Emperor was the only one with the know-how to make geneseed, and I very much doubt that He would have entrusted His own genes to anyone else with something this crucial time, even Malcador, who being loyal wouldv'e advised against it in the first place anyway.