Grey Knights Fluff Changes

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Exergy**

Psienesis wrote:
Though that would be stepping on Bjorn's toes, as the "oldest Space Marine (kinda) in existence".

Trumped by nearly every CSM character.

Huron is really young

**Psienesis**

Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

**ClockworkZion**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DanielBeaver wrote:
That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.
Precisely because marines are not reliable should they be mind-wiped. Because what is worse than a mind-wiped marine becoming a vegetable is a not-mind-wiped daemon-corrupted marine turning his whole chapter to chaos. Happens all the time .

Replying to this a bit late, but there is a chapter of Marines that is known for being Mind Wiped on a regular basis: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

So if they can do it to a Chapter on a regular basis, I think they've got it down to a pretty good degree when doing it to Marines.

**BrianDavion**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DanielBeaver wrote:
That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.
Precisely because marines are not reliable should they be mind-wiped. Because what is worse than a mind-wiped marine becoming a vegetable is a not-mind-wiped daemon-corrupted marine turning his whole chapter to chaos. Happens all the time .

Replying to this a bit late, but there is a chapter of Marines that is known for being Mind Wiped on a regular basis: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

So if they can do it to a Chapter on a regular basis, I think they've got it down to a pretty good degree when doing it to Marines.

I don't see anything in that link about mind wiped on a regular basis. I only see referance to them serving along side grey knights twice in approximatly a 400 year period.

**ClockworkZion**

BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DanielBeaver wrote:
That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.
Precisely because marines are not reliable should they be mind-wiped. Because what is worse than a mind-wiped marine becoming a vegetable is a not-mind-wiped daemon-corrupted marine turning his whole chapter to chaos. Happens all the time .

Replying to this a bit late, but there is a chapter of Marines that is known for being Mind Wiped on a regular basis: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

So if they can do it to a Chapter on a regular basis, I think they've got it down to a pretty good degree when doing it to Marines.

I don't see anything in that link about mind wiped on a regular basis. I only see referance to them serving along side grey knights twice in approximatly a 400 year period.

You should look at their chapter tactics then: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf They get their brains scrubbed on a regular basis.

EDIT: I've asked FW for clarification of "By This Seal" earlier today so who knows if/how that rule will change, if at all.

**Wyzilla**

Psienesis wrote:
Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

I don't believe Bjorn is Terran. There are far older Fallen than he.

**pm713**

Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

I don't believe Bjorn is Terran. There are far older Fallen than he.

They've been in the Warp so it could have been 3 years for them.

**Psienesis**

Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

I don't believe Bjorn is Terran. There are far older Fallen than he.

He served alongside Russ and the Emperor, so he's close enough as to make no nevermind. What surviving Terra-born CSM are there?

**Exergy**

Psienesis wrote:
Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

Bjorn was pretty young during the HH. Abby/Kharn/Arhiman/Typhus were all more accomplished and probably older.

CSM also have 6-8 remaining primarchs depending on how you count

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Most of the other CSM Veterans of the Long War are, at best, contemporaries of Bjorn, not significantly older than he is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart is a Renegade gone Chaos, he didn't fight in the Great Crusade.

It should also be noted that, for the VotLW, it doesn't seem like 10,000 years have passed. Time doesn't really happen in the Warp.

I don't believe Bjorn is Terran. There are far older Fallen than he.

He served alongside Russ and the Emperor, so he's close enough as to make no nevermind. What surviving Terra-born CSM are there?

The Fallen, as in Dark Angels. Cypher included. As DA were the first legion, many of them were originally Terran. Who knows if those that fell were from Terra, but some might have been.

**Psienesis**

So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM? Cypher is almost-definitely not Terra-born, he's (at best) from Caliban.

The Fallen, themselves, are an interesting lot. Are they traitors to the Imperium? Really? Or not? And of those who were on Caliban but were Terran born, how many of them survived to M40 (CSM kill each other more frequently than SM kill them). Or are the DA simply chasing myths that have, for the most part, died out (either due to time or the other vagaries of chance)?

**Wyzilla**

Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM? Cypher is almost-definitely not Terra-born, he's (at best) from Caliban.

The Fallen, themselves, are an interesting lot. Are they traitors to the Imperium? Really? Or not? And of those who were on Caliban but were Terran born, how many of them survived to M40 (CSM kill each other more frequently than SM kill them). Or are the DA simply chasing myths that have, for the most part, died out (either due to time or the other vagaries of chance)?

I take it you haven't heard of Meirr Astelan and his hundred warriors from Terra?

Also, Dark Angels aren't chasing myths, unless myths have become corporeal and haunt the Dark Angels at every step they take in an attempt to find them, while attacking the Dark Angels and their public image. The Fallen are most certainly still active, and incredibly lethal compared to normal CSM's.

**Exergy**

Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM? Cypher is almost-definitely not Terra-born, he's (at best) from Caliban.

The Fallen, themselves, are an interesting lot. Are they traitors to the Imperium? Really? Or not? And of those who were on Caliban but were Terran born, how many of them survived to M40 (CSM kill each other more frequently than SM kill them). Or are the DA simply chasing myths that have, for the most part, died out (either due to time or the other vagaries of chance)?

Do the fallen have the ability to reproduce? Do they have gene seed.

I know the answer but still....

**BrianDavion**

One big fluff change that no one's really noted yet is that the grey knights are painted as MUCH more independant of the inqusition then previously

**Psienesis**

Exergy wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
So, in other words, there are no confirmed, remaining/surviving Terra-born CSM? Cypher is almost-definitely not Terra-born, he's (at best) from Caliban.

The Fallen, themselves, are an interesting lot. Are they traitors to the Imperium? Really? Or not? And of those who were on Caliban but were Terran born, how many of them survived to M40 (CSM kill each other more frequently than SM kill them). Or are the DA simply chasing myths that have, for the most part, died out (either due to time or the other vagaries of chance)?

Do the fallen have the ability to reproduce? Do they have gene seed.

I know the answer but still....

Since they're Space Marines (in the main) they'd have to have it. However, it is noted that a lot of those who fled from Caliban retired to lives of quiet solitude. How many of them are still alive today? How many chose to swallow their bolt-pistols after being tossed through the Warp and scattered throughout the galaxy? How many of the original Fallen Angels are still alive?

I take it you haven't heard of Meirr Astelan and his hundred warriors from Terra?

Also, Dark Angels aren't chasing myths, unless myths have become corporeal and haunt the Dark Angels at every step they take in an attempt to find them, while attacking the Dark Angels and their public image. The Fallen are most certainly still active, and incredibly lethal compared to normal CSM's.

Are you sure that isn't just the Alpha Legion, knowing the ways to hunt and hurt the DA? Sure, Astelan was one, but the number of the original Fallen they've encountered in the last 10,000 years could be counted on both hands. But this also ties back into the thing with the Warp. Time doesn't pass there and Astelan, specifically, skipped over 10,000 years because the Warp threw him from Caliban to, what, M40? M41? That is, if I am remembering Angels of Darkness correctly.

Of the rest, how many of them are hanging out on Daemon Worlds in the Eye? How many, like Astelan, skipped the 10K years between then and now? How many are leading Chaos Warbands in the service to some Ruinous Power or another in the Eye? How many of them think the Heresy ended a few centuries ago?

Doesn't really matter in the end, however, as Bjorn is still the oldest, "living" loyalist Space Marine in the Imperium.

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
Doesn't really matter in the end, however, as Bjorn is still the oldest, "living" loyalist Space Marine in the Imperium.

Mostly on the virtue that he took the slow way to get there.

So this popped up elsewhere:

Envihon wrote:
Well, it is official, the codex finally comes out and says that the Grey Knights are made with the Emperor's gene-seed. From the topic heading in the new 7th edition codex on page 7 entitled "In The Emperor's Image": "...a Grey Knight is the same as any other Space Marine - a potent solider of the Emperor's armies but nonetheless a mere shadow of his true potential. Few warriors since the Horus Heresy have matched the flawlessness of the Grey Knights, nor are any so closely linked to the Emperor. It is the unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the warp, shape it to his will and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain"

So there we have it, the codex finally coming out and saying what it has been hinting to for quite awhile, the Grey Knights are indeed of the Emperor's gene-seed. Also the Grey Knights just straight up banish the Bloodtide without any help of the SoB, which aren't mentioned at all in the new codex.

And I gotta say I take issue with a sentence in there for being very dumb and not making much sense when you stop and think about it:

"Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection."

The Grey Knights geneseed is still 10k years old at this point too, and has just as many generations. The only way that sentence makes sense is if they have never harvested geneseed and are still somehow using the original unimplanted genseed from 10k years ago.

**troa**

Clockwork, it is a bit of hyperbole. At the same time, in theory each new founding may get a bit further away from purity so the majority may be far away. And the flaws inherently in many, but of course not all, of the gene seeds lines are not there in the GK.

**ClockworkZion**

troa wrote:
Clockwork, it is a bit of hyperbole. At the same time, in theory each new founding may get a bit further away from purity so the majority may be far away. And the flaws inherently in many, but of course not all, of the gene seeds lines are not there in the GK.

Ultramarines are the least "drifted" of the geneseeds (hence why they get used for so many foundings) and are pretty close to the Emperor as well, are we to pretend they are somehow tainted or inferior then to make the Grey Knight Mary Sue train keep chugging along?

I'm not against it being the Emperor's Geneseed, I'm against the claims that it's somehow less drifted or distant when it's not that much younger than every other geneseed, to include one that's arguably just as pure and taint free. It's not a good sentence and just makes the whole thing sillier than it should be.

**Furyou Miko**

I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

**ClockworkZion**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

Possible, but it's still just a poorly worded sentence that implies instead that their Geneseed is somehow has not seen hundreds of generations of implants and so on which is silly.

**easysauce**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

this is exactly it,

GK geneseed is the ONLY one not be be corrupted by chaos during its creation, so its the only one to not have to endure what 10k of that corruption can do to the gene seeds.

Also, it was the last batch created as new, so likely had some recipe improvements.

not to mention, that there is less corruption of the GK geneseed caused by fighting chaos in the first place, all the loyalists exposure through combat corrupts their geneseeds, but not the GK's.

TLDR:

space marines +2 beat your space marines +1

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

That and the new dex confirms it comes from the Big E himself, which makes it wholly undiluted or tainted like the Primarchs'.

**Orblivion**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

That and the new dex confirms it comes from the Big E himself, which makes it wholly undiluted or tainted like the Primarchs'.

But we're never actually told how much geneseed came from the primarchs after their warp vacation though. Most of the legions were built off of the original genetic material, before any of the primarchs were rediscovered. Of course, it can still be claimed that the primarchs' genetic material was more tainted anyways, because while it contained a part of the Emperor's genetic material just like the Grey Knights, it was also made with some Chaos trickery I believe?

**Furyou Miko**

Indeed, chaos was involved at the very creation of the Space Marines.

Also, just because the Grey Knights are the Emperor's literal sons does not mean that it is undilited or tainted. If it did, they would be chibi-Emperors, not Grey Knights.

The very act of turning it into geneseed dilutes it.

**ClockworkZion**

Orblivion wrote:
But we're never actually told how much geneseed came from the primarchs after their warp vacation though. Most of the legions were built off of the original genetic material, before any of the primarchs were rediscovered.

The Legions were created from the genetic material the Emperor had to work with after the Primarchs were lost. So yeah, not as innately tainted as some people claim.

**Grey Templar**

Orblivion wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
I think it's supposed to be implied that the GK 'seed is more pure because it never came from a warp-cast primarch, the only warp intervention was that which created them in the first place.

That and the new dex confirms it comes from the Big E himself, which makes it wholly undiluted or tainted like the Primarchs'.

But we're never actually told how much geneseed came from the primarchs after their warp vacation though. Most of the legions were built off of the original genetic material, before any of the primarchs were rediscovered. Of course, it can still be claimed that the primarchs' genetic material was more tainted anyways, because while it contained a part of the Emperor's genetic material just like the Grey Knights, it was also made with some Chaos trickery I believe?

The Emperor still had each Primarch's DNA, just not the actual Primarch.

So he was forced to make cheap copies(with degrading quality) till they were found again. And then they were able to recorrect any errors. But as the millennia have passed the geneseed has again degraded.

Presumably, the GKs still maintain a stock of the original geneseed, better preservation techniques, or have access to the source material, or all of the above, to keep their geneseed from degrading.

**Psienesis**

That and the new dex confirms it comes from the Big E himself, which makes it wholly undiluted or tainted like the Primarchs'.

Can't be. It may be his genetic material, certainly, but it cannot be his gene-seed, as he didn't have any to give. Gene-seeds are genetically modified "germ-cells" used to grow specific organs. The Emperor didn't have the range of organs that gene-seeds are used to grow.

So there's still at least one step of genetic manipulation/shenanigans between Big E and the Grey Knights.

**Deadshot**

Psienesis wrote:
That and the new dex confirms it comes from the Big E himself, which makes it wholly undiluted or tainted like the Primarchs'.

Can't be. It may be his genetic material, certainly, but it cannot be his gene-seed, as he didn't have any to give. Gene-seeds are genetically modified "germ-cells" used to grow specific organs. The Emperor didn't have the range of organs that gene-seeds are used to grow.

So there's still at least one step of genetic manipulation/shenanigans between Big E and the Grey Knights.

Gene-seed is a collection of cells from each organ used to clone more. Its literally just the DNA coding of the Primarch (or the Emperor in this case). You don't need Progenoid Glands.

As for your final point, there is indeed that. But there is 2 steps between the Emperor and the (Ultramarines for example). Its the difference between looking like your Grandfather or your father. You may slightly resemble your Grandad but odds are you're far closer to your dad.
Now imagine that you are the GK. The SM are not your brothers, more your nephews. Their Grandad is your dad but you are not their father.

**Psienesis**

Gene-seed is a collection of cells from each organ used to clone more. Its literally just the DNA coding of the Primarch (or the Emperor in this case). You don't need Progenoid Glands.

Which in no way counters what I said. Progenoid Glands are grown from gene-seed and, in turn, create gene-seed for the next Marine. All of the other organs are also cultured from gene-seed.

However, as there is no more genetic material to be gleaned from the Emperor himself, the Grey Knights must, like every other Chapter, be using progenoid glands to produce their Marines. Their material is just as old as that of any other current Chapter.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed#.VAYzzaNuXbY

**Deadshot**

Psienesis wrote:
Gene-seed is a collection of cells from each organ used to clone more. Its literally just the DNA coding of the Primarch (or the Emperor in this case). You don't need Progenoid Glands.

Which in no way counters what I said. Progenoid Glands are grown from gene-seed and, in turn, create gene-seed for the next Marine. All of the other organs are also cultured from gene-seed.

However, as there is no more genetic material to be gleaned from the Emperor himself, the Grey Knights must, like every other Chapter, be using progenoid glands to produce their Marines. Their material is just as old as that of any other current Chapter.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed#.VAYzzaNuXbY

Don't psycannons fire the Emperor's poo? Poo has DNA as far as I know.
And the fact remains that there is genetic material to be obtained. You wonder why the Emperor is now a corpse?

Thought that was decomposition?

**Psienesis**

Don't psycannons fire the Emperor's poo? Poo has DNA as far as I know.

"Biological effluvia from the Golden Throne" is how it's stated in the codex.

Effluvia is a gas, not a solid mass. It's just a byproduct of the Golden Throne, probably the remains of the Emperor's slowly-decaying corpse. It's not, literally, fecal matter.