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So I have the new GK Codex and just thought I'd impart some changes from the fluff compared to the Ward Dex:

-"The Bloodtide Returns" is now just one short paragraph. No mention at all of the GK killing innocent SoB and using their blood, so I guess its been retconned out.

-Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

-No mention at all is made of the Mary-Sue crap Draigo does while in the warp, only that his "purity" protects him from the daemons there.

-Emperah being the GK's genetic template pretty much confirmed.

-GK still kill or mind wipe guardsmen and other humans who aid them, but no mention is made now of the mind wipe procedure making them vegetables most of the time. Space Marines and now just :Sworn to Secrecy"

-New event added last to the timeline, talking about how Titan itself might face a daemonic incursion.

-The stupid box that only Draigo or another Supreme GM can open is still in the fluff.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

-New event added last to the timeline, talking about how Titan itself might face a daemonic incursion.

They are really taking this "end times" thing and running it into the ground, aren't they?

tgjensen wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

-New event added last to the timeline, talking about how Titan itself might face a daemonic incursion.

They are really taking this "end times" thing and running it into the ground, aren't they?

Being a Chaos worshiper, I call it progress.

Well the Purifiers are guarding "something" in their little sanctum.

They could have a very powerful greater daemon, or even a daemon primarch, locked up down there. Or maybe a warp portal which was a side effect of Titan getting hidden in the Warp shortly before the Heresy.

Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that ripping his heart out did any permanent damage to Mortarion other than bruising what was surely a very large ego.

Speaking of GKs interacting with the SoB, there is now a large story where Draigo and his GKs work alongside a Canoness to repel a major demonic incursion. The Sisters all die, but this time it is done as they hold the line for Draigo to do his thing. Much better than the Bloodtide.

Yea was kinda the just ridiculous notion that a space marine ( no matter how special his training, or geneseed) Bested a God warrior Primarch, and not just bested completely bent him over and disgraced him

I mean the fight should have been as one sided as one sided gets, Draigo in a dreadnought or just erased

I mean how many Gks died trying to halt Angron

Not perfect, but overall it sounds like a major improvement.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the Purifiers are guarding "something" in their little sanctum.

They could have a very powerful greater daemon, or even a daemon primarch, locked up down there. Or maybe a warp portal which was a side effect of Titan getting hidden in the Warp shortly before the Heresy.

Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that ripping his heart out did any permanent damage to Mortarion other than bruising what was surely a very large ego.

The Ward Dex had Draigo carving Mortarion's heart from "his rotting corpse" implying that he had killed/banished him.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Space Marines and now just :Sworn to Secrecy" .

That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the Purifiers are guarding "something" in their little sanctum.

They could have a very powerful greater daemon, or even a daemon primarch, locked up down there. Or maybe a warp portal which was a side effect of Titan getting hidden in the Warp shortly before the Heresy.

Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that ripping his heart out did any permanent damage to Mortarion other than bruising what was surely a very large ego.

The Ward Dex had Draigo carving Mortarion's heart from "his rotting corpse" implying that he had killed/banished him.

Hardly.

Remember who we are talking about here. Mortarion. The chosen of the god of Decay and Death.

His body was certainly rotten to the core with all manner of disease and filth, and the body was also definitely dead. But when you are a daemon the death of your physical form means very little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Space Marines and now just :Sworn to Secrecy" .

That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.

A mind-wiped Space Marine is still a Space Marine.

You also seem to be under the impression that mind-wipe = total erasure of all memory. It doesn't. It just means select memories were erased.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the Purifiers are guarding "something" in their little sanctum.

They could have a very powerful greater daemon, or even a daemon primarch, locked up down there. Or maybe a warp portal which was a side effect of Titan getting hidden in the Warp shortly before the Heresy.

Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that ripping his heart out did any permanent damage to Mortarion other than bruising what was surely a very large ego.

The Ward Dex had Draigo carving Mortarion's heart from "his rotting corpse" implying that he had killed/banished him.

Hardly.

Remember who we are talking about here. Mortarion. The chosen of the god of Decay and Death.

His body was certainly rotten to the core with all manner of disease and filth, and the body was also definitely dead. But when you are a daemon the death of your physical form means very little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Space Marines and now just :Sworn to Secrecy" .

That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.

A mind-wiped Space Marine is still a Space Marine.

You also seem to be under the impression that mind-wipe = total erasure of all memory. It doesn't. It just means select memories were erased.

Once again, the Ward Dex specifically states the mind wipe, even the Space Marine one (thought its supposedly safer) carries a high risk of completely wiping the targets mind and making them vegetables.

True, it has a chance of rendering them vegetables. But that is still preferable to letting them go with the chance of becoming corrupted by the memories.

A marine is valuable, but not so valuable as to make the risk of another daemonic incursion acceptable. If the mind-wipe fails, just harvest his geneseed and make another marine. He served his Emperor well.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.

Precisely because marines are not reliable should they be mind-wiped. Because what is worse than a mind-wiped marine becoming a vegetable is a not-mind-wiped daemon-corrupted marine turning his whole chapter to chaos. Happens all the time .

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


-"The Bloodtide Returns" is now just one short paragraph. No mention at all of the GK killing innocent SoB and using their blood, so I guess its been retconned out.

-Mortarion's open-heart surgery performed by Draigo is still mentioned, but its now specifically stated that the act did not destroy or even banish the Daemon-Primarch, and only dissipated him for awhile.

-No mention at all is made of the Mary-Sue crap Draigo does while in the warp, only that his "purity" protects him from the daemons there.

A step in the right direction if nothing else!

 curran12 wrote:
Speaking of GKs interacting with the SoB, there is now a large story where Draigo and his GKs work alongside a Canoness to repel a major demonic incursion. The Sisters all die, but this time it is done as they hold the line for Draigo to do his thing. Much better than the Bloodtide.

I like that one.

Its nice that they now have descriptions and heraldry for all the Brotherhoods as well

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
That's a good change - it always seemed silly to me that they mind-wiped Space Marines (especially consider how risky the procedure is supposed to be). Regular guardsmen are a disposable resource, Astartes are not.

Precisely because marines are not reliable should they be mind-wiped. Because what is worse than a mind-wiped marine becoming a vegetable is a not-mind-wiped daemon-corrupted marine turning his whole chapter to chaos. Happens all the time .

But how does the mind wipe keep them from becoming corrupted? By all accounts marines already know of the existence of daemons, so the knowledge they obtain by fighting daemons alongside the Grey Knights is no more dangerous to them than the memory of any other time they may have fought daemons. The mind-wipe just makes no sense to me.

So in all they're still pretty silly, then. Just not as over the top as before.

 Orblivion wrote:
But how does the mind wipe keep them from becoming corrupted?

You forget the false promises and temptations that the demons subtly inserted in your mind or some stuff like that. How should I know, Sisters do not get corrupted anyway .

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Its nice that they now have descriptions and heraldry for all the Brotherhoods as well

Unfortunately, that just adds insult to injury, by giving a section of fluff to Mordrak, but still removing him as a playable character in the book.

The other reason for the mind-wipe is to protect the secrecy of the GK themselves. They are not a Chapter that publicly advertises that they exist.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
But how does the mind wipe keep them from becoming corrupted?

You forget the false promises and temptations that the demons subtly inserted in your mind or some stuff like that. How should I know, Sisters do not get corrupted anyway .

That's not my point. You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest. So why is it that only on the time he does so alongside the Grey Knights, he needs his mind-wiped?

 Psienesis wrote:
The other reason for the mind-wipe is to protect the secrecy of the GK themselves. They are not a Chapter that publicly advertises that they exist.

Even this doesn't really make sense to me. Unless they inflict true death on every single one of the daemons that see them, then the daemons know of the existence of the GK already. So who exactly are they keeping their existence a secret from? I can understand keeping it secret from the general public because it implies the existence of daemons, but again, why marines?

EDIT: All I can think of is that GW wanted to emphasize that GK are marines+1, so they wrote that "even Astartes are subject to GK mind-wipe", just because.

Even this doesn't really make sense to me. Unless they inflict true death on every single one of the daemons that see them, then the daemons know of the existence of the GK already. So who exactly are they keeping their existence a secret from? I can understand keeping it secret from the general public because it implies the existence of daemons, but again, why marines?

In most cases, they do. Also, daemons lie to one another all the time, so why would one daemon believe the words of another.

Further, because the GK are based on the fictionalized accounts of a real-world secret society (the Knights Templar), it simply goes with their motif.

That's not my point. You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest. So why is it that only on the time he does so alongside the Grey Knights, he needs his mind-wiped?

Why would you expect that? The most-common foe of the Imperium is other humans, on rebelling human worlds, followed closely by xenos of some kind or another. Daemons, in terms of frequency of appearance, are very far down the list.

 Psienesis wrote:

Even this doesn't really make sense to me. Unless they inflict true death on every single one of the daemons that see them, then the daemons know of the existence of the GK already. So who exactly are they keeping their existence a secret from? I can understand keeping it secret from the general public because it implies the existence of daemons, but again, why marines?

In most cases, they do. Also, daemons lie to one another all the time, so why would one daemon believe the words of another.

Further, because the GK are based on the fictionalized accounts of a real-world secret society (the Knights Templar), it simply goes with their motif.

That's not my point. You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest. So why is it that only on the time he does so alongside the Grey Knights, he needs his mind-wiped?

Why would you expect that? The most-common foe of the Imperium is other humans, on rebelling human worlds, followed closely by xenos of some kind or another. Daemons, in terms of frequency of appearance, are very far down the list.

I expect that because in every novel I've ever read with marines engaging daemons, the marines are depicted as having full knowledge of what they are fighting. Usually one of them even yells "Daemons!" once the enemy is revealed. This could easily be explained as memories from their hypno-indoctrination, but it could just as easily be explained by memories of personal experience.

 curran12 wrote:
Speaking of GKs interacting with the SoB, there is now a large story where Draigo and his GKs work alongside a Canoness to repel a major demonic incursion. The Sisters all die, but this time it is done as they hold the line for Draigo to do his thing. Much better than the Bloodtide.

sounds really good and in keeping

 Orblivion wrote:
You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest.

I disagree here, I see a demonic invasion as a much more rare and significant event than you do.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest.

I disagree here, I see a demonic invasion as a much more rare and significant event than you do.

I'm not talking about full scale daemon invasions, but regardless even if they don't face them very often the point I was making with that was that they are very obviously depicted as recognizing the fact that they are fighting daemons. How they acquired that knowledge doesn't really matter for my argument, the fact that they have that knowledge at all does.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest.

I disagree here, I see a demonic invasion as a much more rare and significant event than you do.

I'm not talking about full scale daemon invasions, but regardless even if they don't face them very often the point I was making with that was that they are very obviously depicted as recognizing the fact that they are fighting daemons. How they acquired that knowledge doesn't really matter for my argument, the fact that they have that knowledge at all does.

Several Chapters have long standing histories with combating specific Dameons - White Scars, Ultramarines, Blood Angels............

 Orblivion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
You can expect that a marine will fight daemons at least once in his lifetime, probably more than once if we're honest.

I disagree here, I see a demonic invasion as a much more rare and significant event than you do.

I'm not talking about full scale daemon invasions, but regardless even if they don't face them very often the point I was making with that was that they are very obviously depicted as recognizing the fact that they are fighting daemons. How they acquired that knowledge doesn't really matter for my argument, the fact that they have that knowledge at all does.

Any warp transition risks daemonic incursion, and though it is unlikely for the ship to become daemonified, it's fairly safe to assume that with the amount of time spent in the warp, they would see at least one in transit. At the very least they would be informed of the risks of warp travel.

I'd think it pretty likely that SM would be aware of daemons.

Amusingly the Pandorax Campaign has this entry which rather contradicts the GK way of doing things..........

"After the Dark Angels and Grey Knights leave Pythos to deal with more pressing matters, Imperial Guard forces are left to cleanse the planet of Dameons........"

And there are 1000 Chapters. If 10 of them regularly fight daemons, that doesn't mean the other 990 do.