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There you go. If the Emperor's remains are floating away to be used in psycannons and the GK have the technology level they are suggested to have then its perfectly reasonable to assume theh can extract the DNA.

Furthermore, GK geneseed is the same as it always was. There is no corruption. In a normal marine there might be a tiny bit of taint, and it causes a slight mutation in the betcher's gland for example. The geneseed copies this and spreads it to the next Marine who has a slightly deficient betcher's gland. And so on until it stops developing or working. Just a small example. GK have no such taint and so their geneseed is unblemished.

It just says "biological effluvia from the Golden Throne". It makes no claim as to the source of the effluvia. For all we know, this is the soul-dust of the thousand psykers a day that He devours.

 Psienesis wrote:
It just says "biological effluvia from the Golden Throne". It makes no claim as to the source of the effluvia. For all we know, this is the soul-dust of the thousand psykers a day that He devours.

I'm not discussing the "poo" from the Throne. I'm discussing the ability of the GK to obtain more genetic material from the Emperor, not that they would need it.

Point being, this effluvia may not contain any DNA from the Emperor. The Golden Throne, itself, is a fairly large machine, connected to who-knows-what.

 Psienesis wrote:
Point being, this effluvia may not contain any DNA from the Emperor. The Golden Throne, itself, is a fairly large machine, connected to who-knows-what.

The effluvia is irrelevant. It was a poo joke, nothing more.

Point being, the actual point being, there's nothinf stopping the GK getting a hold of the Emperor's flaked off skin and bone chippings (other than maybe the Custodes guard but I'm sure there is some sort of arrangement between them and the Inquisition or the GK).

The fluff gets darker... Think dark grey sheep.

Pretty sure the Custodes don't give a feth what the GK or the Inquisition says or wants, they aren't subject to either of them.

 Psienesis wrote:
Pretty sure the Custodes don't give a feth what the GK or the Inquisition says or wants, they aren't subject to either of them.

How does this contradict what I said?

" but I'm sure there is some sort of arrangement between them and the Inquisition or the GK"

 Deadshot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Pretty sure the Custodes don't give a feth what the GK or the Inquisition says or wants, they aren't subject to either of them.

How does this contradict what I said?

" but I'm sure there is some sort of arrangement between them and the Inquisition or the GK"

But how does that have to do with anything? The only one with the knowledge to create gene-seed was the EMPRAH', the Grey Knights have SOME KIND of gene-seed, therefore their creation was not the result of anyone besides the Big E.

So potential sources for the gene-seed are... the original 8 Grand Masters, which I doubt due to them being ALIVE when they came out of the warp.
Another Primarch, which we doubt because they are all imperfect in a way because they were taken before they were complete.
Thus we are left with the "last gift" a new strain of gene-seed derived from the Emperor that would not give Primarch status because we saw what happened when someone got TOO powerful. Unfortunately a quirk of the gene-seed caused the latent powers to awaken and thus Draigo was born.

it really is the only one that makes sense.

 Psienesis wrote:
It just says "biological effluvia from the Golden Throne". It makes no claim as to the source of the effluvia. For all we know, this is the soul-dust of the thousand psykers a day that He devours.

Now I'm imagining a Custodes, in full armor, using one of those small hand held vacuums to vacuum up a pile of soul-dust to ship of to Titan.

Well they ARE Custodians...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It just says "biological effluvia from the Golden Throne". It makes no claim as to the source of the effluvia. For all we know, this is the soul-dust of the thousand psykers a day that He devours.

Now I'm imagining a Custodes, in full armor, using one of those small hand held vacuums to vacuum up a pile of soul-dust to ship of to Titan.

That's why they keep the Gate of Infinity closed. They have that aura of mystery to maintain. They don't want anyone to see them going around in French Maid outfits.

I have a French Maid outfit, does that mean I'm a Custode?

That depends on how well you wield both a spear and a hand-vac.

Sword and a Hennry, and quite well

Well, then, get you the traditional uniform and you're in!

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

So the Custodes wear Lederhosen?

Of course! Duh!

That must be the reason they don't leave the Palace anymore

It looks like I caused a thread to spin out of control without ever saying a word in the actual thread itself. Imagine that.

Well, let's get it back on topic, shall we? The Emperor and the Primarchs do not have gene-seeds but when making them, they use the Primarchs for the basis. That is how the Emperor made the Space Marine Legions once the Primarchs were scattered throughout the galaxy. The Emperor took the genetic material he used to make the Primarchs, to make Legions in their images which is how the gene-seed was made.

The Grey Knights were made in a similar way except the Emperor used his direct genetic material instead of that from the Primarchs. Remember, the Primarchs themselves were not exact copies of the Emperor but their genes were manipulated by the Emperor...and in some cases the Chaos Gods, to be reflections of certain traits of the Emperor so then the Legions were based off those genetic traits and were put further from the Emperor.

When the Heresy struck, Emperor realized that didn't work so he realized that he needed to create a force of Space Marines that were directly made from his genetic material instead of the manipulations he thought he could do to make the other Space Marines.

Ok. And, as has been said already, just like the Space Marines of the modern Chapters, that genetic material has been reproduced through the centuries through progenoid glands that is both implanted into and collected from the Grey Knights. Their geneseed has had just as much time to decay, alter, mutate and otherwise change as that of any other Space Marine. Further, the original GK were not, themselves, implanted with this super-gene-seed, but were drawn from a number of Legions, so would have had entirely different geneseed from one another at the outset.

Basically, taken as a whole, this stated background for the Chapter just doesn't work, it's neither internally consistent with the GK specifically or Space Marines in general.

 Psienesis wrote:
Ok. And, as has been said already, just like the Space Marines of the modern Chapters, that genetic material has been reproduced through the centuries through progenoid glands that is both implanted into and collected from the Grey Knights. Their geneseed has had just as much time to decay, alter, mutate and otherwise change as that of any other Space Marine. Further, the original GK were not, themselves, implanted with this super-gene-seed, but were drawn from a number of Legions, so would have had entirely different geneseed from one another at the outset.

Basically, taken as a whole, this stated background for the Chapter just doesn't work, it's neither internally consistent with the GK specifically or Space Marines in general.

Well, currently, we don't know what will happen to the original 8, we just know it happened. Heck, we don't even know who is the original 8. Garro might be but James Swallow who has gone on record, says that Garro doesn't even become a Grey Knight. All we know is that a good amount of Space Marines with strong moral character were gathered, and there was more than 8 Space Marines that were gathered by Garro, they just died before Malcador ever got to the point of making the GK Chapter. And it doesn't say that changes haven't happened to the GK, just that "Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given to varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain".

I think this not only refers to the fact that the Space Marine Legions are based off the Primarchs and not the Emperor but also all the Foundings that came after the Heresy. The Ad Mech are good but probably not the best at keeping the genetic accuracy of all the genetic material they store while the GKs do everything in house without any help from the outside. Their Apothecaries have to Paladins (An elite warrior that has to go to hell and back, literally, to prove how pure and awesome he is) where the other Chapters it is typically it is a regular Marine so the Grey Knights have some extra measures to keep their gene-seed the purist of the pure that they don't tell anyone. If they don't let the Ad Mech know how to make Nemesis Force weapons, what makes you think they let them even touch or get near their gene-seed stocks?

I was reading Pandorax and it has some intreasting data in the background that STRONGLY implied that the original 8 basicly had their gene seed changed and "over written" with the grey knights (this is POSSIABLE in theory, although that kind of genetic re-write would be pretty high end biotech and likely unpleasent) . which is intreasting, so we can't eliminate someone simply because "he's not a psyker"

That's a supposition not supported with what we know of the Space Marine Chapters. Also, it should be noted that the GK aren't exactly free agents, and someone has to make their stormbolters, TDA, and all that sort of thing.

This line:

"Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given to varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain".

... just, to me, smacks of GW not really understanding what it is they're saying, or implying. It also suggests to me that the authorial team didn't really grasp how Space Marines are made (hint: They don't splice geneseed, they tried that once and Gak went Real Bad) or how the stocks of geneseed are maintained.

ETA: Also, and perhaps most importantly, if the AdMech is not maintaining the GK genestocks, then who's performing the test to judge its purity?

 Psienesis wrote:
That's a supposition not supported with what we know of the Space Marine Chapters. Also, it should be noted that the GK aren't exactly free agents, and someone has to make their stormbolters, TDA, and all that sort of thing.

This line:

"Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given to varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain".

... just, to me, smacks of GW not really understanding what it is they're saying, or implying. It also suggests to me that the authorial team didn't really grasp how Space Marines are made (hint: They don't splice geneseed, they tried that once and Gak went Real Bad) or how the stocks of geneseed are maintained.

ETA: Also, and perhaps most importantly, if the AdMech is not maintaining the GK genestocks, then who's performing the test to judge its purity?

It says in the Codex that the Grey Knights made an alliance with the Ad Mech and as a part of this bargain, literally moved Deimos from orbit around Mars to have it orbit around Titan and it has become the GK's own little forge world where the tech-priests and servitors of Deimos only serve the Grey Knights where they maintain and manufacture everything from storm bolters to Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. The only thing created in the Citadel is the Nemesis Force weapons, which is a closely guarded secret of the GKs so I imagine in it is the Techmarines of the Chapter who maintain and manufacture those.

If the GKs do this for just Nemesis Force weapons, it isn't a far leap that they would keep track of their own gene-seed stocks since it is the foundation of their purity. With the Apothecaries being Paladins, I wouldn't be surprised if it was them who maintained the purity of the gene-seed. To obtain the rank of Paladin is a great feat and one must be a Paladin in order to be an Apothecary. Also, given that Citadel of Titan was stocked with gene-seed when Malcador first came upon it, also suggests that everything they need to do to care for the gene-seed is done in house. This is where the codex is not clear about how the Grey Knights maintain their purity, only that they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point to add to this(I keep getting farther into the Codex) is that they talk about how the Grey Knights have the unique ability to mold the warp to their will, a skill only shared by one other person, the Emperor himself. At the very least, the Emperor made sure that this trait was expressed in the GK gene-seed but also a power he never gave anyone else because he was looking for a beacon of light to stand in his stead should he fall in the Heresy and this is all in the Codex as well. So it could have the capacity to turn a non-psyker into a psyker much like Magnus' gene-seed did but the fact that they are all some of the strongest psykers before becoming a GK adds to the fact that they are able to bend the warp to their own way which only the Emperor could do before this. Not even Malcador boasted this power.

This is evident with the way they present Sanctic Daemonology in the game itself, only GK can perform it without the high risk of rolling Perils. This represents the fact that they can not only utilize the warp but successfully and safely bend it to their will to make it be an anathema to daemons and the denizens of the warp itself.

It is also represented by them having the Aegis as well. All this is because they are not only Psykers but a gene-seed derived directly from the Emperor, no distillation from a Primarch but just straight Emperor genetic material.

So even though it looks like this thread died, I finally found a sentence that just comes out and says that the Grey Knight's gene-seed is pure genetic material from the Emperor. This was found in an excerpt explaining what the Titansword is and how it became the symbol of the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. It can be found on page 22 in the section that talks about Kaldor Draigo. And I quote: "Along with his pure genetic legacy and psychic power, it (The Titansword) was one of the Emperor's gifts to the newly founded chapter."

So it is hinted and put into flowery language all over the codex but finally, there is a direct sentence that just comes out and says that the Emperor is basically the "Primarch" of the Grey Knights (I used those terms to relate the relationship that the Grey Knights have with the Emperor is similar that the Space Marines have to their Primarchs).

So with that final nail in the coffin from the Codex itself, the debate is finally completed.

That just means nobody else worked on their geneseed, it doesn't mean it literally came from his body.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That just means nobody else worked on their geneseed, it doesn't mean it literally came from his body.

From Pg 7 of the new Codex

the Grey Knight's strength of spirit and purity of body are the two most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through His genetic legacy.

How much clearer does it need to be? Genetic legacy? That is almost blatant.

Besides its been stated that no one else KNOWS how to make create/manipulate gene-seed.

Logically it HAS to come from him.

Mostly playing devils' advocate.

So, the Grey Knights are the Emperor's babies. Just like the Sensei.

Grey Knights are Sensei now. It all makes sense!

Quickjager - nobody knows how to make scones like Mary Berry, does that mean they've got her genes in them?