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My friend and I were having trouble finding a resolution to the crudely drawn situatiuon below

My prince wants to charge a unit of zombies with a vampire on the right most side, because my prince is more to the left of the unit I am not aloud to engage the prince due to the pivot and maximize rules (I'm not sure if this is correct as I would have liked to just charge the unit and put the prince within melee with the vampire)
Pre Charge


Post Charge


After charging is there any way to get my prince over to the vampire such as a combat reform? I am very new to the game coming over from Warmachine and we couldn't find anything on free strikes or moving while engaged.
Question?


Secondary question is, given the position of my prince pre charge was there any way that I could charge the unit and engage the vampire outright?

There is debate about the shuffling down thing in a combat reform. The reforming unit is supposed to reform around it's center, which would make it tough to move a single model anywhere, but some people don't really have a problem with it.

However, if your diagram is accurate, there's no reason you couldn't have gotten corner to corner with the vampire. I'm not very competent on the whole diagram thing, so someone with better computer-diagram-fu will have to demonstrate how it works.

You could have just initially based the Vampire corner to corner. If your diagram is accurate, your initial pivot was more thsan enough to gain the proper angle to make it to B2B corner to corner with the Vampire and still maximize. Make sure you re-read successful charges and how they work.

For argument's sake, if you couldn't have made it over you then would not have been able to get to the Vampire as doing so would have removed a model from combat (one of the 4 Zombies would now not be able to fight that could before).

Saldiven wrote:
There is debate about the shuffling down thing in a combat reform. The reforming unit is supposed to reform around it's center, which would make it tough to move a single model anywhere, but some people don't really have a problem with it.

However, if your diagram is accurate, there's no reason you couldn't have gotten corner to corner with the vampire. I'm not very competent on the whole diagram thing, so someone with better computer-diagram-fu will have to demonstrate how it works.

Combat reform in the FAQ doesn't require you to reform around the center. This is what allows a "shuffle"; your not really sliding the unit as much as pulling models from the unengaged side and putting them on the engaged side.

-Matt

So this means that as long as I "slide" over and engage the same number of models it would be find to combat reform my Prince to engage the Vampire at the end of my combat?

See my reply above. No, as you would be removing a zombie from the fight by doing so.

Ah ok I understand, thank you!

I don't have the book in front of me but isn't the rule for reforms just that you cannot reform to reduce the number of models in combat? Wouldn't that mean that removing a zombie and adding the vampire be OK then?

Also, your initial charge (post turn/wheel) could have easily ended with yours in corner to corner (as mentioned by someone else above).

Otherwise (if your opponent is being hard headed), issue a challenge if you really want the vampire. This allows your model to focus on the hero (or unit champion if available) without having to worry about the rest of the unit taking shots at your solo model.

Edit: So I just checked the book and it states (at least in combat reform): "... it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made. The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish."

To me that seems like you can't reform to get away from a unit that is on your flank (see image for an example) but as long as your BSB still in contact with the same unit you could shuffle/sidestep the solo model to meet the vamp in subsequent turns.

 daemonDan wrote:
I don't have the book in front of me but isn't the rule for reforms just that you cannot reform to reduce the number of models in combat? Wouldn't that mean that removing a zombie and adding the vampire be OK then?

pg 55 has the answer under Reforming From Victory. Note there is a FAQ for this entry, but it doesn't affect the relevant part:

"-it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in base contact before the reform was made."

When you try to remove one of the 4 zombies during the reform, you violate this part.

If this was a full unit vs another, you could do the reform just fine as the zombies would all remain in B2B contact after the reform, but because one unit consists of a single character, it won't work.

I think it's important to point out that the daemon could have just wheeled on the charge to touch the vampire and 3 zombies. The daemon would have still maximized models in the fight.
Likewise, the vampire player could have used "make way" with his vampire if he wanted his vampire in the fight.

But, if the daemon prince didn't touch the vampire to start with, the daemon has no option to shift.

My previous example is void as the book goes on to say that a unit being attacked from multiple flanks is not allowed to reform anyway.

I will concede in the face of more players saying he can't. I haven't had this come up in game so it was new to me.

That said, a challenge still seems like it MIGHT be a good way to get the champion and/or vamp into combat with the DP.

Not really. They just refuse the challenge, and the vampire is safe from the Daemon Prince all the same.

Don't even worry about fighting the Vamp, he will crumble due to combat res when you destroy all his zombies anyway.

Not really. That Daemon Prince alone will not be destroying a decent sized zombie unit in any expedient amount of time.

Max wounds per round=11. 11-3 ranks =8 crumble. So best case vs a full zombie unit 19 per round killed. Highly unlikely but possible.

Realistic wounds per round (average)= 2.78 from melee, 2.5 from Thunderstomps, =5.28 wounds.

5.28 wounds - 3 ranks -1 banner (possible)= 1.28 crumble per round for 6.56 zombies dead per round assuming no zombies manage to hit back. So about 3 full turns assuming no zombies are raised to refresh them on a 40 zombie block.

Throwing big critters into tarpit units = not a good idea except to protect the big critters from shooting (aka cannons). Hence the name tarpit