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So having been an avid fan of Deathwing since I first saw them and collecting an army over the past year, I saw the Grey Knights codex at my LGS. After having flipped through it, my resolve for my Deathwing was shaken. While I love the Deathwing look and fluff, I also rather like the Grey Knights look and fluff, but their rules seem almost strictly better than Deathwing. While we both have scoring terminators, the main differences I see are as follows:
Deathwing
-fearless (the number of times this has screwed me into staying in a combat I didn't want to be in vs being able to fail morale and having a chance of getting out, but possibly running off an objective is beyond count)
-Deathwing assault (This rule I love. No complaints here)
-Vengeful Strike (again, I love this rule, but it is useful for only one turn
-requires Belial. ( While Belial is a bad ass, I usually just use him for the one-use non-deep strike mishap on one squad. This heavily encourages tying up a large amount of points up with him which is usually less than amazing, IMO. And if I don't want him, too bad. It's the only way I can do Deathwing. (I don't really care for ravenwing or greenwing too much.)

grey knights
-nine points cheaper per terminator, if i remember correctly
-psychic ownage when compared to Deathwing
-Doesnt need me to take a character to unlock troops
-has an FOC which gives each squad a 2/3 chance to deathwing assault, basically. While not as dependable, still nearly the same.
-access to stormravens (jesus, I want this so bad)
-nemesis banner grants a 12" fearless bubble, so if you really like fearless, it's still not hard to do.
-dreadknight.


Another thing is that i'm very worried that when the dark angels next codex comes out (in a few years), they won't have access to troop terminators anymore like the more recent codexes. While this wouldn't stop me from going unbound, unbound is frowned upon at my store by several people, and banned from tournaments.

What do we have that makes us on par with Grey Knights that I'm missing?

Till the whole trooping thing changes in 8th next year
you have OS Terminators vs them.

You Also have Storm shield access and that crazy St10 or whatever smite mode which is cool.

Plasma cannons on terminators which is awesome as well vs there psycannons.

but they get apothecary (for palis)

Im not sure if im missing anything else.

If you play GK termies, you'll find yourself wishing you had storm shields quite often. Also, base cost might be cheaper but to get AP2 weapons (hammers, no shields just storm bolters) it will add almost 33% to their price.

Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

GKs can have obsec termies if it's important.

Nothings stopping a GK player from fielding a CAD of 6 terminator squads, all with OS (except the points cost)

One things dark angels DO have over GKs, is VARITY.

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

Three reasons why Deathwing are better than GK Terminators:



Having access to Storm Shields, Thunder Hammers, and Cyclone Missile Launchers makes their terminators far more durable and deadly than GK Termies.

And beyond that, their turn 1 deep strike arrives automatically, and so is more reliable and flexible than the GK Rites of Teleportation. They also get ObSec Land Raiders!

Gk do have hammers at least

Deathwing Knights will still maul MEQ in non-smite mode.

No, Grey Knights are not 'better'. They are cheaper, but lack access to Storm Shields, some of our weapons, Deathwing Assault and our mixed squads. Deathwing will do fine. Here's to hoping though, that Deathwing get a price drop.

 Desubot wrote:

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

No, they don't. Unless someone can prove me wrong, DW automatically have the DW Assault (deepstrike T1 or T2, no reserve rolls needed but scatter as normal). It's part of their rules. If you take Azrael, he makes all Ravenwing and Deathwing count as troops (except for vehicles).

Please let me know if I am wrong, though, because otherwise I have been playing them incorrectly for way too long.

EDIT: After rereading it, I think you're referring to GK and I feel stupid my apologies, first day back in classes

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

No, they don't. Unless someone can prove me wrong, DW automatically have the DW Assault (deepstrike T1 or T2, no reserve rolls needed but scatter as normal). It's part of their rules. If you take Azrael, he makes all Ravenwing and Deathwing count as troops (except for vehicles).

Please let me know if I am wrong, though, because otherwise I have been playing them incorrectly for way too long.

Belial also makes DW troops. Azrael combines Belial and Sammael's army building abilities.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

No, they don't. Unless someone can prove me wrong, DW automatically have the DW Assault (deepstrike T1 or T2, no reserve rolls needed but scatter as normal). It's part of their rules. If you take Azrael, he makes all Ravenwing and Deathwing count as troops (except for vehicles).

Please let me know if I am wrong, though, because otherwise I have been playing them incorrectly for way too long.

S/He was talking about the grey knight nemesis FOC being similar to the DW assault rule. You are right in that DW automatically have DW assault and deepstrike on either t1 or t2, (your choice).

ancraig wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

No, they don't. Unless someone can prove me wrong, DW automatically have the DW Assault (deepstrike T1 or T2, no reserve rolls needed but scatter as normal). It's part of their rules. If you take Azrael, he makes all Ravenwing and Deathwing count as troops (except for vehicles).

Please let me know if I am wrong, though, because otherwise I have been playing them incorrectly for way too long.

S/He was talking about the grey knight nemesis FOC being similar to the DW assault rule. You are right in that DW automatically have DW assault and deepstrike on either t1 or t2, (your choice).

Reading comp fail my apologies, first day back at college and brain is wiped


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ancraig wrote:
Aren't grey knights termies also troop choices? Wouldn't they also have OS?

Do Grey Knights not have access to storm shields?

And yeah, while I love smite mode on some deathwing knights, it's only useful for one turn, and they have no shooting at all. essentially they can murk one thing, then get thrown into hordes since they're s6 ap4 the rest of the time. I typically bring a 5 man squad to deal with land raiders or monoliths.

To do the Deathwing style coming in T1 they have to use there own special force detachment which loses the OS command benefit.

No, they don't. Unless someone can prove me wrong, DW automatically have the DW Assault (deepstrike T1 or T2, no reserve rolls needed but scatter as normal). It's part of their rules. If you take Azrael, he makes all Ravenwing and Deathwing count as troops (except for vehicles).

Please let me know if I am wrong, though, because otherwise I have been playing them incorrectly for way too long.

Belial also makes DW troops. Azrael combines Belial and Sammael's army building abilities.

Derp. Totally forgot about him thanks

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Three reasons why Deathwing are better than GK Terminators:



Having access to Storm Shields, Thunder Hammers, and Cyclone Missile Launchers makes their terminators far more durable and deadly than GK Termies.

And beyond that, their turn 1 deep strike arrives automatically, and so is more reliable and flexible than the GK Rites of Teleportation. They also get ObSec Land Raiders!

Gk's don't have access to Thunder Hammers but the have Access to the Daemon Hammer, which is also a Nemesis Force Weapon. Basically if they get Force off on the Squad and they hit and wound a Wraith-Knight with it, then it's instant death for that Wraith-Knight, which is pretty awesome to say the least. We don't get Storm Shields unfortunately, with the exception of Draigo, but we do have either the Psycannon or the Psilencer in place of the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

Oh, i forgot another pro for the deathwing: split fire. The ability to shoot two krak missles/ an assault cannon into the back of a tank while shooting 8 storm bolter shots at a guard squad is so very useful. Or shoot everything but one stormbolter into a squad of guard, and charge a nearby tank because i shot it with two stormbolter shots. Everyone always forgets split fire.

 Rommel44 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Three reasons why Deathwing are better than GK Terminators:



Having access to Storm Shields, Thunder Hammers, and Cyclone Missile Launchers makes their terminators far more durable and deadly than GK Termies.

And beyond that, their turn 1 deep strike arrives automatically, and so is more reliable and flexible than the GK Rites of Teleportation. They also get ObSec Land Raiders!

Gk's don't have access to Thunder Hammers but the have Access to the Daemon Hammer, which is also a Nemesis Force Weapon. Basically if they get Force off on the Squad and they hit and wound a Wraith-Knight with it, then it's instant death for that Wraith-Knight, which is pretty awesome to say the least. We don't get Storm Shields unfortunately, with the exception of Draigo, but we do have either the Psycannon or the Psilencer in place of the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

But will it blend?


as above people forget split fire occasional which can help.

and no prob about the reading thing no biggy


Its hard to pick force over SS for me as im having far more issues just casting things against enemies that have psykers (usualy 3 lv 3 DPs are a lot dice but thats not even the high end of things)


but SS arnt that great ether considering weight of fire will bring em down as easily as the next guy.

Yeah. I always feel bad when my storm shield goes down to a horde of lasguns or i roll a 1-2 on my save against plasma.

on the plus side, SS has saved me against a deathstrike missle going off on me before.

I also find people underestimate the banner of fortitude. For some reason people won't shoot at it until late game, when i've already made 5-6 FNP saves off it and made its points back several times over.

DW is hilariously overpriced. Including the Belial tax, they're unfortunately relegated to the "for fun, and only if you don't mind losing" category.