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 MWHistorian wrote:

You're misinterpreting what I and others are saying and its an annoying habit of yours.

I should probably count how many times I have been misinterpreted deliberately or accidentally in 10 hours alone. Seems to happen to everyone. Can you ( everyone ) also stop talking as "us" or "we" since you´re just individuals, I find talking/writing this way is just a shallow attempt in trying to make ones own arguments/statements/plain sentences more powerful.

If you're being misinterpreted so many times, maybe the problem lies with you and your ability to communicate your point?

WayneTheGame wrote:
What makes you think one position (that again was related to retail stores) means they now care about their customers? Why the hell are you using that as some verifiable example when everything else they've done indicates the opposite? One maybe good thing versus many, many bad things = still a lot of bad things.

When it comes down to it it´s just a person accepting negative official statements/gestures as the truth and deeming all positive official statements/gestures as lies.

 Blacksails wrote:
If you're being misinterpreted so many times, maybe the problem lies with you and your ability to communicate your point?

I wonder if that's the case. If so, I'll try to be more clear and precise with what I say.

I'm saying that there is evidence (random changes to game, no communication with players) and official statements that say GW doesn't do market research.
There is no evidence that they do do market research.

 RunicFIN wrote:


When it comes down to it it´s just a person accepting negative official statements/gestures as the truth and deeming all positive official statements/gestures as lies.

What positive official statements and gestures, and who's calling them a lie?

 RunicFIN wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
What makes you think one position (that again was related to retail stores) means they now care about their customers? Why the hell are you using that as some verifiable example when everything else they've done indicates the opposite? One maybe good thing versus many, many bad things = still a lot of bad things.

When it comes down to it it´s just a person accepting negative official statements/gestures as the truth and deeming all positive official statements/gestures as lies.

Because again, they have STATED the negatives and shown practically nothing for the positive. What other logical conclusion would there be?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you're being misinterpreted so many times, maybe the problem lies with you and your ability to communicate your point?

I wonder if that's the case. If so, I'll try to be more clear and precise with what I say.

That was directed towards Runic, not you.

 Blacksails wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


When it comes down to it it´s just a person accepting negative official statements/gestures as the truth and deeming all positive official statements/gestures as lies.

What positive official statements and gestures, and who's calling them a lie?

I'm pretty sure he means that customer care position or whatever that I mentioned, which therefore means they really do care about feedback from customers, and somehow that negates saying in the preamble that they do no research or ask the customer what they want, because the logic there is just because Kirby says it doesn't mean it's true.

WayneTheGame wrote:


I'm pretty sure he means that customer care position or whatever that I mentioned, which therefore means they really do care about feedback from customers, and somehow that negates saying in the preamble that they do no research or ask the customer what they want.

Which is what I'm thinking too.

So one thing, which is debatable to how it actually demonstrates any real attempt to either perform market research or show they care about their customers.

 Blacksails wrote:
If you're being misinterpreted so many times, maybe the problem lies with you and your ability to communicate your point?

I don´t think so, misinterpretation happens in almost every thread to a lot of users. If you read the rules of DakkaDakka it even states there this happens all the time.

And why are you fellas having the need to attack me personally when I have now refrained from talking about your annoying habits or discrediting you? Makes it especially sad since you´re apparently some united front. Guess I´ll be the bigger man and just take it without retaliating ( that´s what some of you want anyway, I´m sure. )

 RunicFIN wrote:


I don´t think so, misinterpretation happens in almost every thread to a lot of users. If you read the rules of DakkaDakka it even states there this happens all the time.

And why are you fellas having the need to attack me personally when I have now refrained from talking about your annoying habits or discrediting you? Makes it especially sad since you´re apparently some united front. Guess I´ll be the bigger man and just take it without retaliating ( that´s what some of you want anyway, I´m sure. )

Where is anyone personally attacking you?

 Blacksails wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


When it comes down to it it´s just a person accepting negative official statements/gestures as the truth and deeming all positive official statements/gestures as lies.

What positive official statements and gestures, and who's calling them a lie?

WayneTheGame, previous page. Ctfl+F "throwing a bone"

 Blacksails wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you're being misinterpreted so many times, maybe the problem lies with you and your ability to communicate your point?

I wonder if that's the case. If so, I'll try to be more clear and precise with what I say.

That was directed towards Runic, not you.

I know, I was trying to lead by example.

 RunicFIN wrote:


WayneTheGame, previous page. Ctfl+F "throwing a bone"

Uhhh, yeah, that's not calling it a lie. That's questioning the merits of it. Two entirely different things.

If you're going to discuss this, you have to back these actions up. A single job asking around stores hardly constitutes doing anything really.

 Blacksails wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


WayneTheGame, previous page. Ctfl+F "throwing a bone"

Uhhh, yeah, that's not calling it a lie. That's questioning the merits of it. Two entirely different things.

If you're going to discuss this, you have to back these actions up. A single job asking around stores hardly constitutes doing anything really.

"Many companies say one thing and do the opposite. GW has shown they don't care about customer feedback, no matter what they say or claim. "

Pretty sure that is the definition of lying and/or deceiving.

Anyway: People accepting official gestures/statements when they are negative, dismissing them when they are positive. I´m just saying that on a principal level it´s oxymoronic judgement.

 RunicFIN wrote:


People accepting official gestures/statements when they are negative, dismissing them when they are positive. I´m just saying that on a principal level it´s oxymoronic judgement.

Are you reading what people are typing?

A singular job position, who goes around to GW stores and ask customers about their products is...what, exactly? What should I be acknowledging that as? In a multi-million dollar corporation that spans a few continents, I'm expected to applaud GW for some sort of positive action?

Seriously?

Think about it for a second. Its a single job. That only goes to GW stores. To ask people already buying their product what they think of their product.

I don't know why you're shocked or think its oxymoronic that I can acknowledge the negative stuff and fail to acknowledge this tiny, practically meaningless gesture.

Can you enlighten me what this position could actually produce that will end up being meaningful to me as a customer that doesn't shop at GW retail stores?

 Blacksails wrote:
A singular job position, who goes around to GW stores and ask customers about their products is...what, exactly? What should I be acknowledging that as? In a multi-million dollar corporation that spans a few continents, I'm expected to applaud GW for some sort of positive action?

To regocnize that it can mean they care about their customers just asmuch a statement can mean they don´t do market research, on a principal level when applying the very logic that was demonstrated when talking about Kirby.

Which statement/gesture is of bigger magnitude is besides the point, as I already said: on a principal level. Of course on concretical level a CEO´s statement can, and is by most, perceived more heavy than a single job.

I hope you now understand. Now you or someone else will probably again critisize me for pointing that out as irrelevant or whatever. It´s like I´m a Tzeentch GD and seeing the future, but ah well.

 RunicFIN wrote:


To regocnize that it can mean they care about their customers just asmuch a statement can mean they don´t do market research.

So you truly believe that a multi-million dollar, international corporation can be said to do market research and show they care about their customers by employing a singular person to ask around their shops?

You don't see how a lot of people aren't all of a sudden apologizing to GW? Or how this one job in no significant way refutes the position they do no market research?

One person doesn't mean they care, and it certainly can't be considered any sort of research. Sorry, but no.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
A singular job position, who goes around to GW stores and ask customers about their products is...what, exactly? What should I be acknowledging that as? In a multi-million dollar corporation that spans a few continents, I'm expected to applaud GW for some sort of positive action?

To regocnize that it can mean they care about their customers just asmuch a statement can mean they don´t do market research, on a principal level when applying the very logic that was demonstrated when talking about Kirby.

Which statement/gesture is of bigger magnitude is besides the point, as I already said: on a principal level.

I hope you now understand.

That's not the market research we're talking about. This is.

Market research is any organized effort to gather information about target markets or customers. It is a very important component of business strategy.[1] The term is commonly interchanged with marketing research; however, expert practitioners may wish to draw a distinction, in that marketing research is concerned specifically about marketing processes, while market research is concerned specifically with markets.[2]

Market research is a key factor to maintain competitiveness over competitors. Market research provides important information to identify and analyze the market need, market size and competition.

Market research, which includes social and opinion research, is the systematic gathering and interpretation of information about individuals or organizations using statistical and analytical methods and techniques of the applied social sciences to gain insight or support decision making.[3]

Sending one guy to GW stores to ask already loyal customers what they think isn't market research.
So no. There's no evidence that GW does market research. (And stop arguing about "caring about the customers." That's not what's being discussed.)

 Blacksails wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


To regocnize that it can mean they care about their customers just asmuch a statement can mean they don´t do market research.

So you truly believe that a multi-million dollar, international corporation can be said to do market research and show they care about their customers by employing a singular person to ask around their shops?

You don't see how a lot of people aren't all of a sudden apologizing to GW? Or how this one job in no significant way refutes the position they do no market research?

One person doesn't mean they care, and it certainly can't be considered any sort of research. Sorry, but no.

Meh, I can´t get you to understand and I sincerely tried. But to answer your question: No, I do not, and no one person doesn´t mean they care.

I´ll try again:

Rule: This is the only thing I´m saying/claiming regarding this subject/point:

1. Person X sees a negative statement/gesture of GW, and sees it as the truth.

2. Person X sees a positive statement/gesture of GW, and deems it as a lie/deceiving.

Person X is therefore paradoxical and uses different logic ( again, on a principal level ) on the negative statements/gestures of GW than the positive ones.

That is all.


What I do not think nor claim:

1. That one person proves anything.

2. That the job of a customer feedback presentative has something, anything, to do with market research.

I think Runic's point isn't so much that you should applaud it so much as at least recognize that it exists and the intent behind it.

GW is not some evil empire hell-bent on world domination and the destruction of peace and prosperity for all time.

It is a global, publicly owned corporation run by a small-minded nincompoop and manned by a cadre of yes-men hell-bent on showing profits to shareholders.

Do they care about customers? Yes, they have to or they would have been out of business long ago.

Do they care enough about customers to actually ask them their thoughts? At only the most visceral level.

The issue here is management's misgovernance and incompetence more than outright ill-will.

I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

 agnosto wrote:
I think Runic's point isn't so much that you should applaud it so much as at least recognize that it exists and the intent behind it.

GW is not some evil empire hell-bent on world domination and the destruction of peace and prosperity for all time.

Do they care about customers? Yes, they have to or they would have been out of business long ago.

The issue here is management's misgovernance and incompetence more than outright ill-will.

This. Plus on the subject of "logic being applied regarding negative/positive statements" I was only talking about what I tried to describe above.

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

And this. Some do.

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

For the most part. Some of their legal practices could be interpreted as ill will, but it's most likely from incompetence.
The one man to go around and ask a few people what they think isn't market research and won't be useful in turning their company around. If they don't find out what's wrong, they'll continue to lose sales. If they continue to lose sales, they'll eventually go under. They have got to turn it around but unless they realize there's a problem, it'll never happen.

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

Chapter House Studios and the author of Spots the Space Marine may disagree...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

Chapter House Studios and the author of Spots the Space Marine may disagree...

And independent FLGS's.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

Chapter House Studios and the author of Spots the Space Marine may disagree...

And independent FLGS's.

And Australia...

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

I, myself, get caught up in my own rants about GW (and don't get me started about Mantic). I think it all stems from frustration of long-term supporters of GW and seeing how the company has changed over time from having an open dialog with the fan/customer base to the current state of "we don't care, give us your money and GTFO."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

Chapter House Studios and the author of Spots the Space Marine may disagree...

And independent FLGS's.

And Australia...

and Paulson. But these are business decisions made by lawyers and we can all agree how ridiculous this stuff can become; look at Apple and Samsung suing each other over everything and now we have Apple claiming copyright over a rectangle with rounded corners which is what bar-phones have looked like from day one.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I can agree to that Agnosto.

Then again, I never attributed ill-will to GW, just incompetence.

Chapter House Studios and the author of Spots the Space Marine may disagree...

And independent FLGS's.

Yeah, this is something I think about from time-to-time. I generally apply incompetence, but sometimes I get to thinking that the heads of GW have a purely commercial and thereby antagonistic relationship with their customers. I think it's something that happens when the management can't relate to their customers, and Tom Kirby's background seems to point to that being a possibility.

EDIT: also all the other groups mentioned.

Let´s try to remember anyhow that DakkaDakka and other online communities are just a fraction of the total wargamers in existence, and we cannot know what the majority of wargamers think as none of us actually interact with but a fraction of them/only see what a fraction of wargamers actually think. Most don´t use/actively post on forums nor voice their opinion. Just because here or on other forums there is a belief that GW is going under because of a general opinion formed from being unsatisfied doesn´t mean much in the total scale of things.

It is also a fact that the most active users are the most passionate about their hobby on average, and therefore have stronger feelings and ideas about it. The majority aren´t such people and they are more likely to be fine with the way things are. I know a lot of people who don´t care about things such as psykers in 7th edition, "plain" codices and the like. They are perfectly happy and not even interested that much when it comes to the small things that on the other hand make some people even quit completely.

A lot of people talk like they know what is going on in whole countries or even continents regarding the general consesus. They probably don´t.

There could be 3200 active forum posters saying that GW is going under, that the game is bad and whatever other negative things are being said. And then there´s the hundreds of thousands who don´t use said forum, forums or any forums at all that might be just fine with how things are and happily buying more, resulting in the forementioned being a tiny minority that won´t probably affect anything at all. The situation may very well be that 12% of total wargamers are saying that the game is bad, GW is going under and all that jazz, and 88% being fine and continuing to support and buy GW´s product. Doing bad even for years in a row doesn´t mean much in the end.


Wargamers not active on online communities/forums outnumber us who voice our opinions by a massive amount. And none of us know what the actual majority of all wargamers think. You might know DakkaDakka, and a few other forums. Again, a drop in the ocean some like to deem something bigger in their minds.